Just how important is my cab at this point?

[DJ Bebop]

A 210 can work, but it is a little less pleasing on a big stage. On big stages a 210 feels like you are lost in the vortex of sound.

Not if you are using a nice IEM system and working with a professional production company that's set up for an audience of 1,000 to 10,000 folks. I think you would be able to hear yourself fine on stage.

 

[TheArchitect]

I agree, however I simply can't get used to the only IEM thing. My amp doesn't blast the stage, it's just a presence that I really need to feel fine.

I wish there were more like you...

 

[dkelley]

If you are doing that well, with those sizes of gigs, is there funding and a label involved at all? Because you really shouldn't need to worry about the backline any more, and you can bring your amp and cab if you want, but your pedal board is your sound for the crowd and for live recording. your amp is for a few people sitting in front of your amp, and mostly for yourself, to feel the bass, assuming you and the rest of performers are using IEMs.

Lots of people rent an amp/cab for live performances at that level, or have it arranged through the venue/label/management/other artists/event organizers/whoever. The tone should be fairly consistent, but it is just for the sake of simple consistency from venue to venue - so you and your team know how to set the amp controls/cab/levels for it to help you experience the bass on stage without adversely impacting your live sound through the mains (phase issues etc).

If you are still needing to bring your own amp and cab due to that just being the situation you are in (I am in that situation often currently, no longer touring or playing live often any more for anyone important), then just bring your amp and cab and it'll work great for this purpose. No need to upgrade anything!

Congrats on the size of the events you are playing! Well done

 

[DJ Bebop]

I agree, however I simply can't get used to the only IEM thing. My amp doesn't blast the stage, it's just a presence that I really need to feel fine.

You don't get enough of that presents from the subs or backwash to feel the music with the IEM?

 

[shadven]

Part of the experience for me is seeing the live band play. And I like to see what they’re playing and playing through. I regularly play everything from small clubs to big festivals. And we use IEMs. But, I like feel and hear my bass, and I request wedges, and I like some decent stage volume. I would play through a 810 if I had my choice (preferably an Ampeg), but the logistics may make that prohibitive. I use 2 MESA 115 cabs. They produce great tone and are plenty loud. Stacked they are high enough off the ground to (tastefully) fill the stage.
If it’s modern electronic music or hip hop, I don’t think I’d want/ needs cabinet or bass rig at all.

 

[baxter_x]

You don't get enough of that presents from the subs or backwash to feel the music with the IEM?

Well.....not depends way too much of the venue. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. With a real rig, I know it's always there and am the only one in charge.

 

[baxter_x]

I wish there were more like you...

Haha thanks, when I was young I was used to blasting the stage. This happens when you don't master and understand how to tweak an EQ and shape your sound .

 

[BaltBass5]

I play about 100 shows per year in venues that range from 500 - 3000 capacity. The house sound systems are killer and we use an IEM Rig. I stopped using an amp and cab about a year ago and run my pedalboard only. The last thing in the chain is a Radial JDI. IMO and Experience there is NO point in having a cab on stage when using IEM's given that you are getting your monitoring direct to your ears and the house system is louder than the cab is ever going to be. It has worked perfectly.

 

[baxter_x]

IMO and Experience there is NO point in having a cab on stage when using IEM's given that you are getting your monitoring direct to your ears and the house system is louder than the cab is ever going to be

IME and IMO, an IEM cannot replace a real cab. Yes, the house system provides a huge sound but not as clear and present as an real cab.
It's more about definition and presence. But also tactile experience.

 

[coy garcia]

I'd do it without a cab but if I felt I really needed one I would go with a 115 of decent portability.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Big question - are you in the band or a hired hand?

If you're hired then this question needs to go to your MD and whatever they say goes; if you're the artist then you can do what you think sounds and looks coolest. I always kept a 210 cab onstage just to rumble my feet, but none of that was ever reaching the PA.

I've got a Tone Hammer 500, and I too like to rumble my feet.

We play a couple outdoor stages a month during the warmer months. Both have good PA with subs.

For one, I bring a 410 because it's a level roll from vehicle to stage right through the indoor part of the venue (venue's on a slight hill). It's not anywhere near as big a venue as what the OP is talking about playing, but it's outdoors (top-covered with high canvas sections) the stage area is big; I like the feel of the bass notes. Still, what the crowd hears is probably 90% FOH.

For the other venue, it's a large festival-stage with with requisite long metal ramp, I've been rolling the 410, but I'm tired of lugging it, and will use the 210 there next month so I can carpool with the drummer. What the audience hears here is all FOH. They've got adequate PA, though they've also has a sound tech who does too much level riding and can't seem to get a good baseline monitor mix. Here, it especially pays to have control over bass stage level with some kind of amp/cab.

Interestingly, in both cases, I feed post EQ FOH DI off my TH-500. In the first venue, the sound tech requests it; He told me he prefers my amp's baked in drive and finds it easy to tweak with his own EQ. The FOH results are good - recordings we've made from in the crowd confirm this.

In the other case, when I originally fed pre-EQ to FOH and listened later to an in-crowd mic'd video/recording, the sound tech produced such a wall of mush that I may as well have been driving a diesel locomotive. Since then, he gets post EQ and the recordings come through with even, in-the-mix bass. Sound tech's not commented; Not sure if he's any the wiser.

Maybe it's just the TH-500's unique post EQ circuit - It's based on the TH-500 pedal as I mentioned in another post. Admittedly, this is anecdotal. I'll let you know how it sounds pre-EQ when it's demanded or appropriate for the gig.

Footnote: We don't use IEMs, though I wouldn't be opposed. I'd still probably want the feel of that rumble though.

 

[BassoSaku]

I haven't needed any cabs in IEM gigs after I got BackBeat. That gives all the dynamic feel of a cabinet behind your back. It's cheaper than any regular pro-level cabinet.

BackBeat - Play Bass, Feel Bass

 

[BaltBass5]

IME and IMO, an IEM cannot replace a real cab. Yes, the house system provides a huge sound but not as clear and present as an real cab.
It's more about definition and presence. But also tactile experience.

I am using UE Pro 11's and they provide more clarity and presence than ANY cabinet I have ever used. The sound is directly in your ear and not washing around a noisy stage before it hits your ears. The UE's have amazing low end response and are designed for Bassists and Drummers and widely used by professional touring rock bands. The house system provides the feel and the thump. Trust me, I used to make arguments like yours for about a decade until I made the switch, learned what I wanted to do with my mix and dialed in my EQ the way I wanted and I would NEVER go back.

 

[BaltBass5]

Well.....not depends way too much of the venue. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. With a real rig, I know it's always there and am the only one in charge.

Well....with IEM's I am in charge of my mix...I and I ALONE.
We run all mics, and lines to our IEM rig and each of us controls our own IEM mix remotely via Soundcraft UI. The FOH gets a pass through from our Rig. This is the only way to ensure that I have complete control over my mix.

 

[Ronnie Pudding]

I've done about 1000 shows on in ears at this point. There is a bit of a learning curve (You should DEFINITELY rehearse before you play out with IEM's), but once you are past that, I find that an amp stack behind me is much more of a hindrance than a help. You won't get the blaring wall of sound coming at you, but once you have your in ears dialed in, you will find that you hear what you are playing much more clearly. The thing that is still variable is how much floor shaking you will feel - that depends on the stage, and how hot the FOH person runs the bass.

When you get a FOH person that loves low end, and a stage that shakes well (concrete stages do not do this), the combination of clear (but not deafening) sound in your ears, and the earth moving is magical. In this situation, my typical comment to the FOH person is "my feet like the way you mix". When you end up on a concrete stage, it's not as fun, but you still hear yourself very well - doing your job well becomes much easier on in ears.

One thing that in ears unlock (which you might not expect) is stage plot versatility. Most of us are used to being right next to the drums, which helps with timing. With in ears, you can be anywhere, and still be locked in time wise with the drummer. I was located about 50 feet from the drums once, and it was the clearest mix I ever had - NOT having the wash from the drums is actually a benefit. Eye contact was....pretty much non existent, but it was surprising how well that worked. Now, when I am put next to the drums, I typically stand 5 feet or so further from them than I would have before, so that the wash is a bit less - most of the stages I play are big enough that those 5 feet are inconsequential.

The combination of clearer sound, you rears not ringing after a show, and a one trip load in/load out is really nice. So to your original question: Your cab is....not necessary. I'd leave it at home. Mine sits next to my practice desk, as a stand for my pedalboard to sit on. It's been there for a few years.

This ^.

I'd just use the IEMs. If having an amp is something the OP wants to add on stage, then I'd put that in the rider and have it supplied as backline. When I was doing these types of shows, I'd put suggested setups in the rider, e.g., Eden WT-800 + 410 cab, SWR SM-500 + 410 cab, etc.

 

[DJ Bebop]

This is the only way to ensure that I have complete control over my mix.

At least, to your ears.

 

[Obese Chess]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here, I just wanted to add that this is one of the best username/avatar combos I have ever seen.

 

[Mark Karwan]

The answer depends on your needs, other band members needs, and the situation.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to continue using a cab or even an amp with IEMs., but not everyone agrees. If you dig in to TalkBass you will find comments where the bass player preferred having a cab to either fill out the sound or provide some tactile sensation. You will also find comments were the bassist was fine without a cab, but other band members wanted him/her to use a cab.

As an audio tech, I normally prefer the bass to be plugged into a flat response DI. This connection means the bass player is free to adjust his/her amp without impacting the DI signal. I.E. I get a more consistent signal at the mixing console, and I don't have to reverse engineer whatever mojo the player dials into his/her sound.

You may think this does not make sense, but IMHO each signal should be processed discretely for different purposes and listening locations. That means you need a certain type of processing to get the desired sound on stage, and the audio tech needs different processing to dial in the desired sound for the main mix.

My opinion is a bit different when the bass player is relying solely on IEMs. IMHO, it is beneficial to have tone controls at bassist's fingertips, so he/she can quickly dial in a sound for the IEM mix. So an amp or perhaps a preamp/DI could be useful.

With more advanced mixing setups, this need may be eliminated. For example if the IEM setup allows the musicians direct control over their tone in the mix. However, if the bassist prefers a certain baked-in tone, some sort of signal processing may still be relevant. For example the bassist may prefer a certain amp and/or cab SIM.

Ultimately this is something you should discuss with whoever will be running sound for the tour. Something to keep in mind, live audio is often more about finding the best compromise rather than achieving perfection. Also, this is not a discussion you should expect to have on gig day, or even the first rehearsal day. Call and make an appointment to work things out in advance.

No idea how close the tone of the TH Preamp DI is to the TH amps, but something to consider: Tone Hammer – Aguilar Amplification

This a great point and an important point-of-view. One cool thing about the BassRig pre/pedal is that it has additional tone shaping that is sent only to the amp out, not the DI out. So you could set up the DI sound as your FoH prefers it, AND alter the signal to your on-stage cab to your own preference without throwing off the mix. In that way, to me, it's the aguilar head that is redundant, if you are sending FoH the signal from the BassRig. but not a 'problem' at all to use it or use it as power-only.

I think the "it depends on..." factors have been well addressed. My strategy in your position would probably be to run the amp out from the Origin BassRig to a single powered 112 of your preference, or passive 12 with a GSS baby sumo perched on top (love that single, huge volume knob). Or if you personally like 210's better than 12's, that would be great too. I like the in-ear precision plus a small amount of stage vibe/pants flap/backup sound, but I am among those who feel a single "medium" cab (112, 210, 115) is adequate and a smart compromise in this scenario, if you're not ready to go fully cab-less.

 

[micguy]

IME and IMO, an IEM cannot replace a real cab. Yes, the house system provides a huge sound but not as clear and present as an real cab.

We have very different experiences. A cab (any cab) on stage wouldn't come close to being as big, as clear, or anywhere near as full of a sound as what a good house PA can provide in a decent sized place - the amount of surface area and power that a good PA has (tens of thousands of watts) dwarfs any bass amp, and as far as hearing yourself on stage, good in ears are much clearer than any cab I've every tried.

One of the places I play on a regular basis has an Ampeg head/fridge cab on stage for the bassist to use. Although I don't have to schlep it, I don't use it. it doesn't add anything helpful to me once I have a good in ear mix.

 

[micguy]

Not if you are using a nice IEM system and working with a professional production company that's set up for an audience of 1,000 to 10,000 folks. I think you would be able to hear yourself fine on stage.

You will, and if you play on stage without an amp up there, the FOH person will love you for that decision (always a good thing). You will typically end up louder in the house mix if you don't have an amp - the sound person doesn't have to guess as to how your stage wash will impact the sound from the mains, so they can push you up in the mix, without fearing negative consequences.