Just how important is my cab at this point?

[Short4since64]

Gonna try and make this as concise as possible.
Started playing at a professional level (1,000-10,000 cap rooms, major festivals etc.) in 2022.
I have a headline tour coming up in about 3 weeks ( these rooms will range from (1k-3,000 cap)so I got an Aguilar TH500 (Aguilar has been the brand that never lets me down when I've backlined rigs in the past) but I'm trying to figure out the cab situation as soon as possible.
I did a support tour with an Amp Rocket RB-210 and even played Radio City Music Hall with it but I just feel like I need to upgrade my personally owned rig at this point.

We will be on ears and our FOH engineer says the majority of my tone in the FOH mix comes from my DI signal. I have my pedal board dialed in at this point, it ends with an Origin Effects BassRig64 which acts as my DI.

Just how important is my cab at this point? Part of me thinks I should just spend the bread on the Aggy SL210 or bigger but the cost is a bit much right now.

Thanks in advance, glad to finally not just be a lurker anymore!

Personal opinion, all depends on how much the "feel" of the bass matters to you. FOH engineer will be generating the tone audience hears 100% All the mid and above of your bass will be coming thru your IEMs, hard to hear any stage rig short of a double fridge SVT over it. A 410 or larger, on the ground, pointed in from the side. Did a fill in gig some years ago, about 5000+, 2 shows, bassist had an unfortunate confluence of pharmaceuticals and a long-hair-hating judge. Bass directly into a 1/4 to XLR matching transformer and into the snake. Foldback returns into wedges, sidefills, and a dedicated feed carrying bass and kick only into a W-bin pointed sideways at my standing location alongside the drum kit. Hired hands don't get the spotlight! Actually worked very well. When I play a gig now with supplied FOH, I bring a 115, guitarist his 112 and point both of them sideways inward.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Been my experience many times. You don't realize how far out front your cab projects, especially when you turn it up loud enough so you can hear it comfortably. What sounds 'just right' to you can be way too loud or washy/indistinct out front depending on room acoustics.

A rig can't compete with FOH overall - but it can make the low end harder to mix out front if you have your rig way louder than everything else to be heard on stage. FOH often does overpower a rig when it's set right for FOH level balance.... which often results in a less than useful volume level ON stage.

Agreed. We play at a top-covered, semi-open 2,000-capacity venue with a large stage and somewhat antiquated-but-effective sound system.

To gage what the FOH sounds like and to have a study-companion for any new audibles the band leader calls out, I like to set a Zoom Q2n video camera in the crowd with hi-capacity battery pack (Zoom records audio, especially bass, well). I usually set it way off to one side, mid-room, so it doesn't get bumped and I can keep an eye on the red light and make sure it doesn't walk off. This is a decent spot to gage FOH without much backline bleed.

Here, I've rolled an 8 ohm 410 with my Tone Hammer 500 as more or less a personal stage monitor. Even at 250 watts/8 ohms, this can be an overly loud rig if I'm not careful.

Which happened the first time we played there when I tried to fill more than just my side of the stage. The bass cab bleed heard in the crowd was not complimentary to FOH, and probably drove the sound tech nuts.

 

[bucephylus]

As an audio tech, I normally prefer the bass to be plugged into a flat response DI. This connection means the bass player is free to adjust his/her amp without impacting the DI signal. I.E. I get a more consistent signal at the mixing console, and I don't have to reverse engineer whatever mojo the player dials into his/her sound.

You may think this does not make sense,…

That makes total sense from one perspective, but is complete rubbish from another perspective. IMHO.

“Good” or “Bad,” from an artistic standpoint, the SE should be amplifying whatever tone the musicians are producing; as opposed to reworking them into something that the SE finds more preferable.

In a perfect world, the SE would have sufficient time to work with each musician to mutually find tones appropriate for the FoH mix, yet still within the individual sounds the musicians have cultivated. Dismissing a musician’s “specific” tones happens at many larger gigs, for a variety of reasons; some practical, and some stylistic. The latter reasoning / purpose may not serve the music.

Hope that makes sense.

I once attended a Trombone Shorty performance at Centennial Hall in Tucson. The FoH Engineer (from Tucson, not the band’s regular) mixed the FoH to be a massive version of a 2000W subwoofer system in a Honda Civic. The R&B bass lines were entirely obscured by being relegated to the massive subwoofers.

While, I am sure that particular mix suited the SE’s reference bias, it also was significantly distorted from that band’s reference sound. That is a rather extreme case; but, my post is intended to simply clarify that “player mojo” is sometimes intentional; and best case is to sort out the FoH issues consistent with the music vs SE preferences. Which often gets inadequate attention / time.

 

[TheArchitect]

That makes total sense from one perspective, but is complete rubbish from another perspective. IMHO.

“Good” or “Bad,” from an artistic standpoint, the SE should be amplifying whatever tone the musicians are producing; as opposed to reworking them into something that the SE finds more preferable.

In a perfect world, the SE would have sufficient time to work with each musician to mutually find tones appropriate for the FoH mix, yet still within the individual sounds the musicians have cultivated. Dismissing a musician’s “specific” tones happens at many larger gigs, for a variety of reasons; some practical, and some stylistic. The latter reasoning / purpose may not serve the music.

Hope that makes sense.

I once attended a Trombone Shorty performance at Centennial Hall in Tucson. The FoH Engineer (from Tucson, not the band’s regular) mixed the FoH to be a massive version of a 2000W subwoofer system in a Honda Civic. The R&B bass lines were entirely obscured by being relegated to the massive subwoofers.

While, I am sure that particular mix suited the SE’s reference bias, it also was significantly distorted from that band’s reference sound. That is a rather extreme case; but, my post is intended to simply clarify that “player mojo” is sometimes intentional; and best case is to sort out the FoH issues consistent with the music vs SE preferences. Which often gets inadequate attention / time.

Your making a few assumptions. First, that the local guy turned the sound into that. Maybe he was doing exactly what you proposed and used what the musicians were giving him. Second, that musicians have any clue about mixing. In my experience it goes both ways. A lot of good player can't tune their guitars let alone dial in a sound that could remotely fit in a mix. Some can. Some can't. I am highly critical of soundmen on a regular basis but squeezing an entire band into a mix through a loud PA is more than just pushing up faders. I would want the DI too in that case

 

[Wasnex]

“Good” or “Bad,” from an artistic standpoint, the SE should be amplifying whatever tone the musicians are producing; as opposed to reworking them into something that the SE finds more preferable.

IMHO, The audio tech should try and honor the artist's tone to the greatest degree possible. But that is not the same as reproducing it with 100% accuracy, which is not even possible. The audio tech must apply artistic discretion, just like the musicians. That means reworking the artist's tone to some extent.

What works for the artist on stage is not necessarily optimum for the house mix. Tone should be optimized for listening location and intended purpose. One location and purpose is on-stage, for the artist's monitoring needs. Another location and purpose is out front, for the audience's listening needs. The audio tech does his/her best to satisfy the needs of both audiences. But compromise is often required due to the way acoustics vary from one listening position to the next, and also due to variation in the needs of different audiences and musicians.

Ask every member of a band to build their idea of a perfect mix, and it's likely you will get significant variation. How can an audio tech satisfy each musician if they have different ideas of how the band should sound? The answer is it can't be done, so the audio tech must have their own vision and goals.

Ideally a band should select an audio tech with a compatible artistic vision. If the band members consistently don't like the choices an audio tech makes, they can try to communicate their expectations and set guidelines. But the best choice may be to simply hire someone whose artistic vision aligns better with the band.

 

[bucephylus]

IMHO, The audio tech should try and honor the artist's tone to the greatest degree possible. But that is not the same as reproducing it with 100% accuracy, which is not even possible. The audio tech must apply artistic discretion, just like the musicians. That means reworking the artist's tone to some extent.

What works for the artist on stage is not necessarily optimum for the house mix. Tone should be optimized for listening location and intended purpose. One location and purpose is on-stage, for the artist's monitoring needs. Another location and purpose is out front, for the audience's listening needs. The audio tech does his/her best to satisfy the needs of both audiences. But compromise is often required due to the way acoustics vary from one listening position to the next, and also due to variation in the needs of different audiences and musicians.

Ask every member of a band to build their idea of a perfect mix, and it's likely you will get significant variation. How can an audio tech satisfy each musician if they have different ideas of how the band should sound? The answer is it can't be done, so the audio tech must have their own vision and goals.

Ideally a band should select an audio tech with a compatible artistic vision. If the band members consistently don't like the choices an audio tech makes, they can try to communicate their expectations and set guidelines. But the best choice may be to simply hire someone whose artistic vision aligns better with the band.

+1

 

[bucephylus]

Your making a few assumptions. First, that the local guy turned the sound into that. Maybe he was doing exactly what you proposed and used what the musicians were giving him. Second, that musicians have any clue about mixing. In my experience it goes both ways. A lot of good player can't tune their guitars let alone dial in a sound that could remotely fit in a mix. Some can. Some can't. I am highly critical of soundmen on a regular basis but squeezing an entire band into a mix through a loud PA is more than just pushing up faders. I would want the DI too in that case

They were not assumptions in that case, but based on a significant body of available examples. It is what it is. Which was merely an example of one pole of a wide range of things that can happen. An extreme case, to be sure.

 

[joel the bass player]

Given the option I love having a cab behind me, even though I'm always using IEMs. Most of my sound is coming from my pedalboard so my amps days might be numbered. But if I had someone else carrying it or everyone else on stage had an amp, I'd have to have one too. I have loved my Aguilar DB212 since I got it but hauling it in and out of the basement isn't great.

If I was looking for something today to take on tour and wanted it to be Aguilar I'd like to take a look at the SL stuff but a DB410 (or two) would be at the top of the list I think.

 

[JazznFunk]

Agreed. We play at a top-covered, semi-open 2,000-capacity venue with a large stage and somewhat antiquated-but-effective sound system.

To gage what the FOH sounds like and to have a study-companion for any new audibles the band leader calls out, I like to set a Zoom Q2n video camera in the crowd with hi-capacity battery pack (Zoom records audio, especially bass, well). I usually set it way off to one side, mid-room, so it doesn't get bumped and I can keep an eye on the red light and make sure it doesn't walk off. This is a decent spot to gage FOH without much backline bleed.

Here, I've rolled an 8 ohm 410 with my Tone Hammer 500 as more or less a personal stage monitor. Even at 250 watts/8 ohms, this can be an overly loud rig if I'm not careful.

Which happened the first time we played there when I tried to fill more than just my side of the stage. The bass cab bleed heard in the crowd was not complimentary to FOH, and probably drove the sound tech nuts.

It's a tough thing to let go of. We all WANT to use our rig because, well, we spent the money on it and we do like how it sounds. Sometimes though, it causes more problems than it needs to.

If having that haptic/tactile feedback while in IEMs is a requirement, I've seen people use those 'Buttkicker' platforms which transforms your bass signal into vibrations where you can stand on it and feel it. I've also seen a backpack like device that does the same thing. A DJ friend of mine uses one for live performances.

 

[Pocket Dave]

It's a tough thing to let go of. We all WANT to use our rig because, well, we spent the money on it and we do like how it sounds. Sometimes though, it causes more problems than it needs to.

If having that haptic/tactile feedback while in IEMs is a requirement, I've seen people use those 'Buttkicker' platforms which transforms your bass signal into vibrations where you can stand on it and feel it. I've also seen a backpack like device that does the same thing. A DJ friend of mine uses one for live performances.

I got around it after the first gig by turning down.

Still need the cab there since monitor mix isn't consistent or reliable. Same with most places we play in bar band world.

 

[Aussie Player]

The cab is where a lot of the tone you like is generated. That's why when you swap cabs, something is always missing until you use your preferred cab again.

If you do away with your preferred cab and then trust a stranger to manage you tone........

 

[TheArchitect]

The cab is where a lot of the tone you like is generated. That's why when you swap cabs, something is always missing until you use your preferred cab again.

If you do away with your preferred cab and then trust a stranger to manage you tone........

You already trust front of house to do that

 

[PortraitsOfMacy]

wow. thank you all for the wealth of information and insight.

just a couple of updates and bits of info I feel were left out on my initial post.

the consensus between our FOH engineer and myself is that having a "decent sized cab" on stage is important to the look and feel of the performance seeing as how the act is on the postpunk/alternative/shoegaze side.
I trust our FOH engineer implicitly. he was actually brought into the camp by me. he shares our sensibility completely.

I just talked to the TM and we have already budgeted my backline rental meaning-
A) I was worried over nothing (for now)
B) I need to make sure I'm always communicating with our TM/production team in the future.

Having said all of this, I think I'm still going to get an Aguilar cab at some point this year for my personal use.
(I'll be sure to keep perusing the classifieds here)