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kay c1 standup bass
- Thread starter rstrike
- Start date
When I bought a blonde Kay bass in the late 1970’s in Buffalo, I took it to Primerano’s bass repair. It didn’t feel loose, but Mr. Primerano pulled the neck off in about 5 seconds.
After he glued it, I never had a problem for 20 years, then sold the bass.
I have another 150 year old bass, where the neck popped off with it just sitting in a corner. I took it to Saul Cornell, string instrument repair near Orlando, where he used a high tech epoxy to re-glue it. I haven’t had any further problems.
There are a few glue options for neck repair. I personally would have an experienced luthier do the repair, if possible.
Get the neck reset by a professional luthier. That joint will eventually fail
( a common thing for Kay basses).
My friend was in charge of the musical instruments for our town after he retired as a teacher/administrator. He had a bunch of Kays in the storage area that were in 2 pieces, collected over the years. Unfortunately, there was no rush to repair them because the string program (orchestras) in the school system were on a decline.
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The cool thing about hide glue is that it’s very easy to clean up. If you’re the DIY sort and don’t have any gigs coming up, I’d say it’s not the hardest project you could take on. And, if it doesn’t work or if decide it’s beyond you, very easy for a luthier to redo any spotty repairs.
Don’t buy the bottle of Tite Bond hide glue though; buy a bag of dried stuff and melt it yourself (most art supply stores will have it if you don’t have a good hardware store nearby that caters to woodworkers). I use an old Moka pot and a hot plate.
Don’t buy the bottle of Tite Bond hide glue though; buy a bag of dried stuff and melt it yourself (most art supply stores will have it if you don’t have a good hardware store nearby that caters to woodworkers). I use an old Moka pot and a hot plate.
There’s a tapered dovetail joint under the neck heel. To properly repair this bass, the neck needs to come out, ALL the old glue has to be removed from all surfaces, and the neck needs to be reset with fresh hide glue. There’s nothing there to “seal”. Dribbling a thin strand of glue in that separation / gap doesn’t get glue down to the dovetail joint and won’t do much other than cosmetically change the look of the gap.
If you’ve done a neck reset on an upright bass, you know all this. If you haven’t, you’ll want to take it to someone that has done several. The first step of getting the neck out of the bass is a lot more difficult than you would expect. It appears to be loose, but it’s likely there’s still some glue holding and it doesn’t turn loose easily. A steam source and a needle to get it where it needs to go is usually required.
Hide glue is strange stuff. It’s also called glass chipping glue for reasons unknown to me, but imagining what it means is kinda’ scary…
If you’ve done a neck reset on an upright bass, you know all this. If you haven’t, you’ll want to take it to someone that has done several. The first step of getting the neck out of the bass is a lot more difficult than you would expect. It appears to be loose, but it’s likely there’s still some glue holding and it doesn’t turn loose easily. A steam source and a needle to get it where it needs to go is usually required.
Hide glue is strange stuff. It’s also called glass chipping glue for reasons unknown to me, but imagining what it means is kinda’ scary…
This question comes up frequently, and it's important to note that there is more to the job than gluing the neck back in. As the neck tenon slowly escapes the mortise under string tension and torque, it distorts the softer neck block. The block has to be repaired or the problem will simply recur, and in short order. Best practice is to replace the block with harder wood; usual practice is to shim the joint to refit the tenon. Common practice is to squirt in random adhesive, and when that doesn't work add lag screws, deck screws, nails, dowels, frame brackets, door hinges or whatever to reinforce the joint, which causes more damage and still won't fix the problem. Have a competent, bass-positive luthier look at it, this isn't an easy DIY job.
Everyone is so very precious. You’re not befouling a Del Gesu here; stay away from wood glue, fire and chisels and you won’t do anything that isn’t easily undone, and you might learn something in the process.
Don’t waste your time superficially filling a neck joint on a Kay, get the neck reset.
This is advice from a well respected bass shop.
The problem is, the glue didn't fail, the entire joint failed (if it was ever there to begin with). If you just reglue the neck, the problem is still there. But if you try with hide glue I guess no harm no foul. It'll just happen again and again. Waste of time until the block is replaced or repaired.
EdwardofHuncote
I Still Dream of Jeannie
- Aug 21, 2013
- 6,658
- 2
- 16,432
- Disclosures
- I privately own and operate a local musical instument repair shop.
OP, here's what it looks like inside that neck joint. I had this one in my shop a while back for the same reason... in the pics I'm refitting the mortise and dovetail.
Once the joint fits tight and flush by friction, then comes the glue and clamp. (this one also had a collapsed top from a loose bass bar... hence the disassembly)
The pics @EdwardofHuncote posted are great. Look carefully at the neck block; it has a dovetail-shaped slot that is wider at the top of the bass and gets more narrow toward the back. The tenon on the neck is shaped the same, and since you have the original neck, it probably won’t have to be shimmed very much.
I’ve done exactly one neck replacement, which was on my 1952 Kay M-1. I bought the bass with a cracked neck heel that had been repaired, and it was good for a while, but it failed. Rather than attempting another repair, I replaced the neck.
I started to list all I had to do in detail, but it would approach the size of War & Peace. I’ll list steps, but I won’t elaborate much.
1. Get the old neck out. On mine, the old neck was toast, so I used a recip. saw and cut the old heel in 1/2 to 3/4” thick pieces and took them out one at a time. I tried to get the remaining piece of heel (about 3/4 of the whole heel) out in one piece, but no luck. This was after dripping boiling hot water into the dovetail Yours will have to come out intact.
2. Clean old glue out of the neck block AND off the neck tenon. Easier to say in text than to do and I had a new neck. Yours will need both pieces cleaned up.
3. Fit the new neck in the neck block using shims to make it fit snugly. This took me several days working 2-3 hours a day. I estimate I dry fit the neck & shims into the dovetail 150-200 times, no exaggeration…
4. Glue in the neck. Just four words, but a major part of the job. You have to make sure you have the neck straight so your bridge feet are the same distance to the F-holes on each side. You will probably need to take the fingerboard off the neck to clamp the neck into the dovetail, because with glue in there, it will hydraulically push back. It has to be clamped, not just lay a couple books on it.
By the way, I do not recommend attempting this job unless you are exceptionally good at woodworking. I’ll never do another one. Mine turned out OK, but it took a couple weeks, and “OK” does not mean “perfect”…
I’ve done exactly one neck replacement, which was on my 1952 Kay M-1. I bought the bass with a cracked neck heel that had been repaired, and it was good for a while, but it failed. Rather than attempting another repair, I replaced the neck.
I started to list all I had to do in detail, but it would approach the size of War & Peace. I’ll list steps, but I won’t elaborate much.
1. Get the old neck out. On mine, the old neck was toast, so I used a recip. saw and cut the old heel in 1/2 to 3/4” thick pieces and took them out one at a time. I tried to get the remaining piece of heel (about 3/4 of the whole heel) out in one piece, but no luck. This was after dripping boiling hot water into the dovetail Yours will have to come out intact.
2. Clean old glue out of the neck block AND off the neck tenon. Easier to say in text than to do and I had a new neck. Yours will need both pieces cleaned up.
3. Fit the new neck in the neck block using shims to make it fit snugly. This took me several days working 2-3 hours a day. I estimate I dry fit the neck & shims into the dovetail 150-200 times, no exaggeration…
4. Glue in the neck. Just four words, but a major part of the job. You have to make sure you have the neck straight so your bridge feet are the same distance to the F-holes on each side. You will probably need to take the fingerboard off the neck to clamp the neck into the dovetail, because with glue in there, it will hydraulically push back. It has to be clamped, not just lay a couple books on it.
By the way, I do not recommend attempting this job unless you are exceptionally good at woodworking. I’ll never do another one. Mine turned out OK, but it took a couple weeks, and “OK” does not mean “perfect”…
Buy this book:
gollihurmusic.com
Read it, then read it again. If you have some okay woodworking skills, or want to learn some this will save you thousands on repairs and maintenance!
Setup and Repair of the Double Bass for Optimum Sound by Chuck Traeger
Chuck Traeger's "Bible" for bass maintenance and repair (and its "sequel") offer in-depth info, illustrations, and useful tips galore.
gollihurmusic.com
Read it, then read it again. If you have some okay woodworking skills, or want to learn some this will save you thousands on repairs and maintenance!
It is an old Kay, not a 300 year old Maggini. Nobody gives a _______ if you destroy it; there are 50,000 others still around , most with similar neck issues.
If you have the desire and patience, get Chuck's book, only use hot hide glue, and give it a shot. There is a good chance you'll need a steamer to loosen it more. You'll likely learn a few things and pass a bit of time in a productive manner that does not involve a screen or device. If you completely F----- it up; they make great firewood. Be ready for more than you can see.
Think for yourself, and if it gets to be too much, then take it to a professional luthier. Be prepared for a substantial additional dumbass tax if you do some stupid short term thing like fill it with titebond or epoxy thinking nobody will notice; I would likely refuse to work on it and scold you for that move. I've reset hundreds of these old necks and more than 50% of them had the internal neck block partially broken and stuck to the neck so it was more work than the owner understood.
Don't overthink it. Don't treat a rusted old VW like it is a Bugatti. These are cheap, utility instruments for (often) cheap, utility players. They can also work well in the right setting and provide a lot of pleaure to their owners without needing to sell their car or house or give up jr's college education fund to afford one.
If you have the desire and patience, get Chuck's book, only use hot hide glue, and give it a shot. There is a good chance you'll need a steamer to loosen it more. You'll likely learn a few things and pass a bit of time in a productive manner that does not involve a screen or device. If you completely F----- it up; they make great firewood. Be ready for more than you can see.
Think for yourself, and if it gets to be too much, then take it to a professional luthier. Be prepared for a substantial additional dumbass tax if you do some stupid short term thing like fill it with titebond or epoxy thinking nobody will notice; I would likely refuse to work on it and scold you for that move. I've reset hundreds of these old necks and more than 50% of them had the internal neck block partially broken and stuck to the neck so it was more work than the owner understood.
Don't overthink it. Don't treat a rusted old VW like it is a Bugatti. These are cheap, utility instruments for (often) cheap, utility players. They can also work well in the right setting and provide a lot of pleaure to their owners without needing to sell their car or house or give up jr's college education fund to afford one.
This is a luthier directory from Gollihur.
You can call a local place and find out.
Gollihur Music's Famous Upright Bass Luthier Directory
You can call a local place and find out.
Gollihur Music's Famous Upright Bass Luthier Directory
