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Double Bass Kay DB - Excess Neck Bow from Loose FB

I'd compare it to the way a giraffe's neck looks when it gallops..very supple :-) in any case that fact that the neck is floppy without a fingerboard makes talk of adding back bow seem silly. Maybe on guitars or electric basses with less mass at the peg and heel portions, but maybe not.
 
I have a '37 Kay M-1 Alvin Hawes model, same neck and tuners as the OP's M-4, but without the blonde finish. These are better instruments than the average Kay.
I had the fingerboard replaced and a rod installed in the neck at the same time. When I got the bass back, even just holding it I immediately noticed the greater stability of the neck. The playability and sound of the bass were greatly improved, and I never regretted spending the money to have that work done. Highly recommended if you have a Kay bass and want to keep it a while.
 
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It isn't always necessary to add the stiffening rod. I get the feeling that some luthiers install these graphite rods whether the instrument needs it or not. Like prescribing a surgery as necessary procedure when in truth, it really is an elective issue. I personally don't **always** enjoy the tonal effect of graphite on stringed musical instruments. And once you add that rod to the neck, if you don't like the change in sound you'll always wonder if it's because of the graphite. Undoing it will be cost prohibitive in most cases. So, sometimes graphite is a great addition for a variety of reasons, other times that operation will be a success, but the patient will die. Just my opinion.
 
To better understand where folks are coming from, I'll ask this simple question:

Do you actually own an old Kay and if so, have you had the neck reinforced with carbon fiber?

Yes to both for me. I don't know any luthiers who are getting rich by selling carbon snakeoil, but there is a 70+ year history of consistent old Kay bending neck issues. I heve never heard of a single instance where someone had this done, and then came back six weeks later saying, "I'm really bummed out and dissapointed....can you take this out and give me back my lame-a$$ old bending whimpy P.O.S. Kay neck like before....."

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
 
Yes, I own a M-1. I loved the sound with the original 1/4" rosewood board, but the skinny neck issue finally got to me after 30+ years. When it came time for a new FB, I had an Goetz ebony board and a tapered maple shim installed to get a somee more bridge height as well as neck depth. The original neck was very straight, so that coupled with all the material being added to the neck, the luthier felt that graphite would be unnecessary, better to keep the wood. He puts graphite rods in basses all the time, and even though he regularly installs the graphite rod he recommended against it with my Kay. It wasn't a money issue. It was really his decision, I trust him. The bass sounds different now. First of all the neck is huge, like some of the old euro shop basses. It has more point in the upper freqs of the attack. It lost some of the warmth rosewood added to the initial attack, but it gained in other areas. I like it and and feels great to play. I had a nice carved bass which had graphite added when the new board was installed. Not so lucky with that one. A formally $10K sweet bass came out with to much point. The improvements in other areas were fine, but it wasn't a joy to play anymore. I just sold it, recouped most of my investment and the new owner loves it. Had it been a really high end bass, and it hadn't sounded right, damn square I'd of brought it back! Believe me James, you wouldn't want a guy like me pissed about any work you'd done for me. :-)
 
To better understand where folks are coming from, I'll ask this simple question:

Do you actually own an old Kay and if so, have you had the neck reinforced with carbon fiber?

Yes to both for me. I don't know any luthiers who are getting rich by selling carbon snakeoil, but there is a 70+ year history of consistent old Kay bending neck issues. I heve never heard of a single instance where someone had this done, and then came back six weeks later saying, "I'm really bummed out and dissapointed....can you take this out and give me back my lame-a$$ old bending whimpy P.O.S. Kay neck like before....."

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
shaging right!

Here's a text I got from a client who had bought a '52 Kay M-1 from a very well known Kay seller in the southern US for $3500.00US plus shipping plus brokerage. Bear in mind that he paid me for a neck reset, CF installation, new bridge, board dress and set up:

"So Jake, wanna know my impression of my bass since I've brought it home and played it most of the day? Freakin' awesome, Jake. You've made the instrument come alive with a beautiful voice, and tender easy to play. Thank you."

That's why James and I and Arnold and Nnick and Jeff and others do this. Its just a great feeling to turn somebody's instrument into something that expresses their musical selves more completely. Its not for the money, I assure you... :roflmao:
 
Mr. PC,
I'm sure putting on a really beefy board will solve the bendy problem, and a CF inlay would have less effect on tone in such a case. But still, the inlay just seems like exactly what a Kay needs. Especially if you aren't going to install a really thick board, which I imagine is getting pricier and more difficult to source.
 
Especially if you aren't going to install a really thick board, which I imagine is getting pricier and more difficult to source.
I'm partial to keeping the original Brazilian Rosewood fingerboard if possible. Giving the neck it's own stiffness with the CF often means that we can retain the original board, since we're no longer relying on it alone.
 
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Mr PC:

Thanks for the response to my question. No offense intended, I was just curious if you had been there. Regularly I see folks giving advice with not much experience to back it up; it sounds like you have plenty and I respect your opinion. I too prefer the sound of the original Brazilian rosewood fingerboard over an ebony one, but I understand that they wear out a lot faster and it is the sum of the whole bass that matters, not just the individual parts, and to replace a Brazilian rosewood 'board in this market is cost prohibitive compared to the lesser priced, yet harder ebony. For those that don't know Brazilian rosewood is much more expensive than a comparable board of ebony. A straight neck is a different conversation than a bent or warped old flatsawn neck. One of my old Kays has been rebuilt like a massive, old German style neck and the more I play it, the more I like it. That one is not for sale.

There you have it, mutiple folks, multiple perspectives on how to fix your old bass, likely multiple ranges of what we are all hearing; nothing new around here. An ideal situation is to find someone who has a working example of the bass your are talking about that has had similar modifications and then you'll know if it is the way to go for your bass. As a blanket statement, I always tell folks: Well, if you are not happy with it, stand back, I'll lock it in the vise and break the neck in half again, just like it was when you brought it in, and we'll just call it even......!!!!

BTW: Jake's bass story came from some other bass nerd in the southeast, not me!

Old Kays are funny. They are not the best sounding, or the best looking, or the easiest to play, or a lot of other things that we all like in a fine instrument. They are not what I would even call a fine instrument- not even close. Yet, for all of that, 95% of the time when I have a gig where the ladies are shakin' and grindin' all night long, and both the crowd and the band are all jacked up and on fire for the whole night and it is dark and there is drinking and smoking and the air is flooded with sexual tension and I'm running through my LOUD rig and playing like it is my last day on the planet.....my fancy carved bass sits at home safe in the corner, my old aluminum bass is there too, along with the vintage European beauty.....and without hesitation I reach for my old beat to $--T, flood damaged, Willie Nelson's Trigger meets Stevie Ray Vaughan's stratocaster half the finish gone, honest real mojo HOSS of an old Kay and I absoulutely love it and I'm high off just the gig for days and I wouldn't trade anything for that old piece of plywood junk. Pack me up in it when I die and set us both on fire on our way up to the big gig in the sky with Ray and Django and Miles and Michael Hedges for my rhythmn section!

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
 
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BTW: Jake's bass story came from some other bass nerd in the southeast, not me!

Pack me up in it when I die and set us both on fire on our way up to the big gig in the sky with Ray and Django and Miles and Michael Hedges for my rhythmn section!

The bass did NOT come from James, it came from a big Kay seller in the Southeast. :meh:

And James, when you leave this Earth, you'll be going down stairs with Ray and Django and Miles but your bass will stay behind and keep making music!

I'll save you a seat by the fire! :cool:
 
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The other issue is the quality of the work performed in the installation of the rod. No glue joint is 100% immune to failing, especially if it's a half ass-ed quickie job. Weird sounds associated with a rod coming slightly loose are possible. In the future there will be acoustic basses that have issues with these hot rod graphite jobs performed by "luthiers". Not saying anyone here fits that description, but certainly some of the people reading looking for a new "service" to sell could. I've already experienced this failure with a "custom" bass guitar neck. Bass guitars are an area where graphite has been used in construction relatively a lot longer and a lot more. A lot more guitar instruments than acoustic basses have graphite rods. So using the graphite rod is not a zero risk proposition. Only thing that is zero risk with the graphite rod is the stiffness to weight ratio and the stress memory characteristics. If you talk to the guys that hold the patent on graphite necks, they will tell you it's the best invention for musical instruments since epoxy. :-)
 
Reminds me of this joke:

A jazz musician dies, and goes to heaven - he sees all his heroes there, playing, sounding better that ever.
In the corner is a lone trumpet player who is really struggling with the trumpet, cracking notes, playing clams - and sounds AWFUL...
The newly arrived musician asks the guy next to him - " Hey, who is that awful trumpet player over there in the corner?"
"Oh, Him? - that's God. He thinks he's Miles Davis".
 
I've enjoyed this thread. My experience with Kays is a bit limited. The first bass I ever played almost 40 years ago was a Kay, as was the second bass I played for a few years. I don't remember that they were good basses but I still have a soft spot for Kays. I've seen a few Kays come through the shop and most of them suffer from thin, warped necks and fingerboards. I wouldn't want to play one in the stock condition they left the factory, adding 40+ years of wear, damage and poor repairs. They were cheap, student level basses and often treated as such.
Last year, I fixed up an M-1 which had a warped, thin neck and rosewood fingerboard. Because I had access to some nice fingerboards, I glued on an ebony board which measured out at 15mm at the nut. Yes, it's that thick. I didn't consider a CF rod but I have no doubt that it would stiffen a neck fitted with a fingerboard of normal thickness. Face it, there is very little maple on Kay necks.
People with lots of experience with Kays know how to get the most out of them, so I'd follow their advice. I know just enough to be dangerous, but lucked out on my project.
 
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