• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Kay DB - Excess Neck Bow from Loose FB

Years ago, a local public school asked me to repair a bass (Cheap Chinese, as I recall, but it has been a while). The Fingerboard had come unglued, and, rather than de-tensioning, and calling a luthier, they had simply bound the board to the neck with cellophane tape (Yep...scotch-tape) and kept playing it. There was about an inch of clearance under the strings, and it was still up to tension...somewhat.

I had never heard of CF reinforcement at the time, so that was not on the horizon. So, I scraped both the board and neck clean, then used a nylon rope and some padded blocks to flex the head/neck back until the neck surface was flat, when checked with a straight-edge, and re-fitted the same board, without alterations. I slathered on the hot hide glue, clamped carefully and thoroughly, and when all was complete, and the intrument was tuned and playing, the neck was as straight as it had been when new, at least. There was no "excess material" to remove, and very little labor involved. Pretty simple fix, and everyone was happy. No idea how the sound compared before and after.

A few years later, an old Kay came to me, whose original rosewood board was too thin, having been dressed many times, and the neck was badly broken. The owner wanted the neck replaced, and wanted the old neck and fingerboard for wall-art. OK... it had some old bolts and dowels and stuff that I had to remove, but I ordered the new neck, and a new ebony board (Rosewood was not available), and commenced the job. Right away I found out that the original dovetail neck and the new one were not the same shape at all, and the new neck was just about as flimsy as the old one. I had to modify the neck to make the heel fit, and re-carved the scroll to match the old one, but it still was flimsy.

I called the customer and recommended the carbon fiber reinforcement. He approved, so I cut two slots radiating from center at about 60 degrees, and installed two thin, flat bars, embedded in epoxy, all around. While the epoxy set, I back-flexed the neck a tiny bit, so that I could plane it dead-flat afterward. The rods were well below the surface, and it did not occur to me to cap them with wood. That would have been a good idea. The CF came from the Dragonplate company...

When all was complete, the new neck matched the old body, and the whole bass looked good. The player was pleased with the sound, so it was successful. The thicker ebony board made the bass more comfortable to play, and the rods added stiffness without adding much mass. (It was my first experience with CF, and I was continually attempting to flex them in my hands, and amazed at how stiff and light they were.) I set up the instrument with the string height at the nut lower than the player had ever had, and he was thrilled with how easy it was to play. Overall it was a stressful, but good experience. Again, everyone was happy.

Too small a sample to be meaningful, I know, but it seems to echo the experience of those luthiers with hundreds of times the experience, and perhaps gives some information as to what is involved with installation.
 
Years ago, a local public school asked me to repair a bass (Cheap Chinese, as I recall, but it has been a while). The Fingerboard had come unglued, and, rather than de-tensioning, and calling a luthier, they had simply bound the board to the neck with cellophane tape (Yep...scotch-tape) and kept playing it. There was about an inch of clearance under the strings, and it was still up to tension...somewhat.

I had never heard of CF reinforcement at the time, so that was not on the horizon. So, I scraped both the board and neck clean, then used a nylon rope and some padded blocks to flex the head/neck back until the neck surface was flat, when checked with a straight-edge, and re-fitted the same board, without alterations. I slathered on the hot hide glue, clamped carefully and thoroughly, and when all was complete, and the intrument was tuned and playing, the neck was as straight as it had been when new, at least. There was no "excess material" to remove, and very little labor involved. Pretty simple fix, and everyone was happy. No idea how the sound compared before and after.

A few years later, an old Kay came to me, whose original rosewood board was too thin, having been dressed many times, and the neck was badly broken. The owner wanted the neck replaced, and wanted the old neck and fingerboard for wall-art. OK... it had some old bolts and dowels and stuff that I had to remove, but I ordered the new neck, and a new ebony board (Rosewood was not available), and commenced the job. Right away I found out that the original dovetail neck and the new one were not the same shape at all, and the new neck was just about as flimsy as the old one. I had to modify the neck to make the heel fit, and re-carved the scroll to match the old one, but it still was flimsy.

I called the customer and recommended the carbon fiber reinforcement. He approved, so I cut two slots radiating from center at about 60 degrees, and installed two thin, flat bars, embedded in epoxy, all around. While the epoxy set, I back-flexed the neck a tiny bit, so that I could plane it dead-flat afterward. The rods were well below the surface, and it did not occur to me to cap them with wood. That would have been a good idea. The CF came from the Dragonplate company...

When all was complete, the new neck matched the old body, and the whole bass looked good. The player was pleased with the sound, so it was successful. The thicker ebony board made the bass more comfortable to play, and the rods added stiffness without adding much mass. (It was my first experience with CF, and I was continually attempting to flex them in my hands, and amazed at how stiff and light they were.) I set up the instrument with the string height at the nut lower than the player had ever had, and he was thrilled with how easy it was to play. Overall it was a stressful, but good experience. Again, everyone was happy.

Too small a sample to be meaningful, I know, but it seems to echo the experience of those luthiers with hundreds of times the experience, and perhaps gives some information as to what is involved with installation.

Somewhat of a derail, but on the CCB, the woodblock and nylon rope treatment: were you back-torquing the neck sort of the way a turnbuckle might operate?
 
And they were also in no manner that sophisticated. This was a guitar factory who on a post depression era whim built up a couple of parts basses for the NAMM show during the embargo thinking that maybe they would sell 50 units. By the end of the weekend, they had orders for 1000s so they went back home and figured out how to maximize the existing machinery and jigs to scale up for "bass" production. They were never bass nerds. They never wanted to be bass nerds. It was nothing more than a business gamble based upon then current politics that happened too work out in their favor. The same thing seems to be true for the remains of the old brand....if anyone there actually played the bass and wanted to make good basses, everything is in place. They just seem to prefer to trudge along until the whole thing falls int a giant Chinese sinkhole....

As for the original post...two years with your bass broken and sitting in the corner.....bummer....in my bass nerd world, that is $10,000 of gigs, uncountable laughter and good times, and 15,000 beautiful women shakin and grindin' it in front of the stage just for me all night long that I never got to see.....get yer' bass working again!!!!!!!!
 
Somewhat of a derail, but on the CCB, the woodblock and nylon rope treatment: were you back-torquing the neck sort of the way a turnbuckle might operate?

The padded blocks were placed so as to flatten the neck by pushing against the back of it. The rope was to provide some beckward tension, and, yes, I think I do recall twisting it with a stick, to apply that tension. It was fastened to the endpin and headstock, in a continuous loop, with pads anywhere it touched the bass, and it did not take much pressure to pull it flat. I could do it with my hands, really, but I needed my hands free to install the fingerboard, etc.

It was flat when finished, and played the same way it did before. No miracles, and very little effort. But it was as good as new, for whatever that was worth. :)

I agree with James: that is a long time to forego playing, for such a simple fix. It really doesn't take much to do it and get it right.

Please do use hot hide glue, and dry-clamp first, to make sure everything really fits right, before slipping the hot hide glue in and re-tightening the clamps.
This is how I install new boards on instruments I build, too:
  • Dry clamp for final fit,
  • loosen a clamp or two, and
  • slide the glue into the loosened area with a thin palette-knife,
  • re-tighten the clamps (Double-check to be sure nothing shifted),
  • loosen more clamps, and
  • repeat, unti it is all glued and clamped.
It is a pretty low-stress operation compared to how I used to work-- apply glue, then frantically try to fit everything correctly, and get it all clamped before the glue gels.

Good luck with it. But I surely would not waste any more time biting your nails over this.
 
The padded blocks were placed so as to flatten the neck by pushing against the back of it. The rope was to provide some beckward tension, and, yes, I think I do recall twisting it with a stick, to apply that tension. It was fastened to the endpin and headstock, in a continuous loop, with pads anywhere it touched the bass, and it did not take much pressure to pull it flat. I could do it with my hands, really, but I needed my hands free to install the fingerboard, etc.

It was flat when finished, and played the same way it did before. No miracles, and very little effort. But it was as good as new, for whatever that was worth. :)

I agree with James: that is a long time to forego playing, for such a simple fix. It really doesn't take much to do it and get it right.

Please do use hot hide glue, and dry-clamp first, to make sure everything really fits right, before slipping the hot hide glue in and re-tightening the clamps.
This is how I install new boards on instruments I build, too:
  • Dry clamp for final fit,
  • loosen a clamp or two, and
  • slide the glue into the loosened area with a thin palette-knife,
  • re-tighten the clamps (Double-check to be sure nothing shifted),
  • loosen more clamps, and
  • repeat, unti it is all glued and clamped.
It is a pretty low-stress operation compared to how I used to work-- apply glue, then frantically try to fit everything correctly, and get it all clamped before the glue gels.

Good luck with it. But I surely would not waste any more time biting your nails over this.

Except that I'm not attaching a fingerboard, this is very similar to what I do when I have to clamp a back or forward bow into an electric bass neck, such as an old Supro violin bass I am working on now that has no truss rod. It's all clamps and cauls and a heat lamp. Haven't had to attach a DB fingerboard in awhile.

As to frantically trying to fit things together, boy, do I hear ya. What I do now is use Blu-tac putty to hold the various cauls in position so I can use both hands just on the clamps.