Keyboard and Bass Frequencies

[DavePlaysBass]

I know this is a common topic. I am playing with a new group of musicians at a larger church. Last night we consisted of a bass, drum, acoustic, keyboard, and violin. The keyboard was basically what I would expect someone to do if they were playing by themselves. I think she is used to carrying the whole load. At one point I was hittin' a low D and it sounded real boomy. I look at the keyboard and the keyboardist is on the lowest D on the keyboard. Unison on 30 somthing Hz Ds is not so good sounding.

How do you communicate with a keyboardist that is muddying up the low zone? Particularly if the keyboardist is pretty good and is driving the melody. I almost think the best thing for me to do is walk away quietly. They don't really need a bass player. Of course last week, they pumped me up telling me how much they wanted me to be their full time bass player. This is not the first time I have run into this. But I am getting tired of playing whole notes and half notes that are nothing more than unison with the keys. If I try to walk, there is no way. And I feel the sound guy has turned me down in the mix because of the boominess so my fills are barely heard on the practice CD (we use IEM on stage so what is FOH is hard to tell). I can groove with the kick drum and that's about it. Maybe that's my answer.

I would like to talk to the keyboardist. But I am not sure what to say. "Dont play with your left hand" does not seem like a good opening statement.

 

[baba]

How about "be conscious of your left hand, sometimes you are stepping on my frequencies and it makes the song and all of us sound/look bad." That makes it more of a "we" than "me" comment.

Also, how about quietly visiting the board and hitting the low cut button on his channel.

 

[LeonD]

I feel your pain. Seriously!

I've been playing in churches for the last twenty years. I've run into some amazing keyboard players who sound great solo. And then when they are in a group, they play the same part. :scowl: It's like "what's everybody else doing up here?".

And then you get the boomy notes. Everybody looks at the bass player to turn down. The only problem is, the bass player isn't playing.

IMO, the only way to solve this is to sit down with the keyboard player and the leader and discuss. My feeling is that ninety percent of the time, the keyboardist doesn't even realize it.

Try to convince him to shift everything up an octave or play simpler parts with the left hand. If that doesn't work, threaten to cut off their left hand.

If after all that it was still a problem, I'd probably leave. Not playing is better than playing bad music in my opinion.

LeonD

I know this is a common topic. I am playing with a new group of musicians at a larger church. Last night we consisted of a bass, drum, acoustic, keyboard, and violin. The keyboard was basically what I would expect someone to do if they were playing by themselves. I think she is used to carrying the whole load. At one point I was hittin' a low D and it sounded real boomy. I look at the keyboard and the keyboardist is on the lowest D on the keyboard. Unison on 30 somthing Hz Ds is not so good sounding.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

Leon,

Do you ever tell the keys to simplify the chords. Many of these songs I have played with guitars and they will stick on the same chord forever and I get to roam. But have the same song arranged by the keyboardist, who is also the band leader, and you have chord changes every beat or two. Just the chord voicings dicate what the bass is going to play. And its blocky, boomy, and absent of serious groove.

 

[LeonD]

I don't know that I've ever had an issue of the complexity of what the keys are playing. It's just when they're playing a bass line (because when they play alone, they play a bass line) and when they're in the bass' register.

When you're making a sonic sandwich, everyone can't be the meat.

LeonD

 

[JansenW]

I feel your frustration. Classically trained keyboardists learn by playing solo pieces (one-man-shows - bass and all).

See if you can record some of your gigs so you can point this out to your keyboardist as you play it back.

Or, see if you can get hold of somethng like this DVD which explains how instruments should leave space for each other. Invalid Link Removed

Keep in mind that your keyboardist may not know what to do when asked to play something other than what's on the sheet music.

 

[kalle74]

oh yes... many keyboard players are unaware of the sonic space they´ll hog if not careful. if she doesn´t care or take it well, cutting lows off keyboard´s channels should do...

or, taking a chainsaw, and cutting off her left arm. or the bottom 2 octaves off her keyboard.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

On the same topic, when I play with guitar players we play straight up chords, D, G, C, etc. And in seculiar rock environments this is not much of an issue as we usually don't have keys. Every now and then I will suggest a guitar player go explore the higher voiced "U2" chords but that's about it.

When I play with keys, the chords get voiced with stuff in the bass that does not always sound good to me. I was just working thru a number that goes G/A to A. If I play an A on that chord it does not have the same sound as a keyboard doing it which sounds fine soloed. No matter which note I play on the G/A it overempasizes that note and does not sound good to me. In a band setting it seems that either the keyboard should do the G/A to A thing by themself or lets all play it G to A.

I have been playing praise and worship for about 8 years now, but I have recently changed churches and have played with a lot of different church musicians in the recent months. I am realizing that many of the frustrations I had with the old church band are reoccuring. And now I am wondering if there is a list of rules that basses and keys need to abide by or at least be aware of. I may end up getting the DVD Jansen linked too. Just the four minute sample addresses 75% of what I am frustrated by.

I used to overplay like crazy. But I have learned to really pull back my playing. I try to build and look for appropriate spaces to fill. I have learned to appreciate the spaces. And in my experiences I have run into a number of people rolling there eyes when talking about busy bass players. But I seldom hear anyone in the church music area really getting on the keys to lay back. In fact, I feel that they are encouraged and looked up to the same way the lead vocalist and the lead guitarist are in the rock band. Maybe I just need some therapy Thanks for validating my feelings guys .

 

[lindseyp]

When I first started playing bass I ran into this problem. Since I grew up playing piano I remembered how to substitute other notes from the root note's scale whenever the keyboardist played on the bottom. I also learned how to play around the player's left hand. I would hit my notes to lead into or away from the keyboardist's left hand root notes, sort of the way some lead singers master the ability to indicate key changes before the band plays the notes. I play with more than one keyboardist/pianist at different times so it's easier for me to adjust to them.

 

[kbr]

As a church pianist myself (I alternate on bass and keys), I've had to learn how to create enough sonic space for the bass player. Some fixes are:

Playing triads in the left hand instead of faux bass parts.
Splitting the keyboard and putting strings on the left (up an octave)
Talking to the sound guy and having the bass cut from the keyboard

There is an even better fix though: A keys player that cares what the group sounds like as a whole. Usually if you talk to them, you can have them adjust their playing to accommodate the bass.

 

[groov'ster]

I sometimes have to deal with the same issue. A lady plays keys sometimes and is very good but is heavy on the left hand.

I have known her for quite a while and she would not be offended if I said anything to her but I know that she is just playing how she knows to play and I dont want to take away form that.

I instead went to the soundman and explained what I was hearing (me vs. her). He chose to adjust her FOH EQ and leave the lowest range to me. She doesnt know, doesnt have to change, I dont have to change, etc.

Made all the difference.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

I sometimes have to deal with the same issue. A lady plays keys sometimes and is very good but is heavy on the left hand.

I have known her for quite a while and she would not be offended if I said anything to her but I know that she is just playing how she knows to play and I dont want to take away form that.

I instead went to the soundman and explained what I was hearing (me vs. her). He chose to adjust her FOH EQ and leave the lowest range to me. She doesnt know, doesnt have to change, I dont have to change, etc.

Made all the difference.

Makes sense. One of the better sound guys at my church does that. But he's not always around.

I need to communicate. In my last church band I learned that communication was not really well received. Hence, I no longer contribute to that group on a regular basis. I just need to choose the right words and approach.

 

[IvanMike]

I sometimes have to deal with the same issue. A lady plays keys sometimes and is very good but is heavy on the left hand.

I have known her for quite a while and she would not be offended if I said anything to her but I know that she is just playing how she knows to play and I dont want to take away form that.

I instead went to the soundman and explained what I was hearing (me vs. her). He chose to adjust her FOH EQ and leave the lowest range to me. She doesnt know, doesnt have to change, I dont have to change, etc.

Made all the difference.

good advice. i still would talk to them. i did kindly threaten to tie one gal's left hand to her side one time, but i smiled and she got it. Otherwise, when doing sound a little frequency slotting goes a long way. At a gig i just did i had to cut the keys off at a certain point becuase he just couldn't figure out how not to step on me. But i also adjusted my tone and cut out a bit where i was intruding on him so it was all good. Most instruments have significant overlap so a soundperson really has to figure out where to give them all room.

 

[1954bassman]

Try the direct approach. Pin down a passage in a song where you and the piano are clashing, and bring it to focus. Demonstrate what A0 and G0 sound like when played at the same time. Point out how; either your playing, and her bass notes will have to mesh perfectly, or one of you will have to lay off the 'bass' part. If she/he is really a good musician, this will be easy!

Still, good advice to cut bass in the FOH (on everything but the bass, and the kick)

Generally, when I play, I lock in with the Drummer, and let the keys (pun) fall where they may. We have IEMs, and I run all the keys a little low - and leave it to them to follow me. But I do spend hours practicing, so I have the songs down before rehearsal (90% of the time).

Bottom line is, good players bring their game face when they play. Everybody should want the band to sound it's best. You wouldn't want two piano players playing differently 'together' just like you wouldn't want two bass players playing two different (clashing) bass parts. Even if one was playing bass on a piano (or guitar).

Mark