Keys vs Chords - what should I focus on more?

[stringtapper]

Emphasis on diatonic.

As someone who knows and understands the major scale and it's modes backward and forward and has known for decades while only having a cursory understanding of all them weird jazz chords, I can say that each day that I study jazz theory it becomes more and more evident that chords is where it's at. One little example in an ocean of oddities, as you must know bassed on your TB profile ... What scale tells you that we commonly raise the 9th on the iii chord of a major scale to avoid the "avoid note" 4th? Ono the other hand, follow the chord and that will save you.

We all learn differently. Scales are very important but put yourself in a less experienced student's shoes. If nobody says "hey, forget the rigidity of a scale for a minute and just trust the chords," only then are they (me) gonna go "holy shtick, now I finally get it." Sure, there are weird and altered exotic scales that were created to facilitate odd stuff (odd stuff like commonly making the V chord major in a minor ii V I, where it SHOULD be minor according to scales most commonly known by regular guys... but the harmonic minor scale was created to facilitate it so that there is an easier, half step between the 7 and 8 ). If one just follows the chords one can get by, especially non-solo instruments.

Again, scales are cool and I'm not picking a fight but I have been there, bewildered by chords that don't fit the rigidity of common scales and the given key signature.... not all too long ago and for a long time. Giving up and just following the chords worked until I have time to more thoroughly understand what is really going on.

So you're… agreeing with me then? It sounds like it.

Because altered and non-diatonic chords are inherently more advanced of a topic than keys and diatonic chords are. Having the foundation of understanding diatonic harmony is important to then build upon and add the more advanced chords.

Sure, there are weird and altered exotic scales that were created to facilitate odd stuff (odd stuff like commonly making the V chord major in a minor ii V I, where it SHOULD be minor according to scales most commonly known by regular guys... but the harmonic minor scale was created to facilitate it so that there is an easier, half step between the 7 and 8 ).

But anyone who has studied how diatonic harmony works would not think this is "odd" at all because they would know that in order for a functional V-I relationship to exist within a minor key the 7th scale degree must be raised to make the V chord major, thus the origin of the harmonic minor scale. In other words, a major V chord IS diatonic in a minor key.

So having a full grasp of how keys work makes the example you gave a non-issue.

 

[tpaul]

You're playing bass, nobody else can hear what notes you're playing anyway. Just stay below the fifth fret and on the beat, and move your fretting hand around a little so it looks like you're doing something. Also if you can slap on the beat and pop off the beat once in a while, people like that sort of thing; just don't overdo it. Once per set is the limit. Otherwise, it doesn't really matter much what you're playing as long as you're on the beat and you start and stop at the same time as the rest of the band. If you feel really motivated you can dance around a little, make "guitar face" and give the drummer eye contact. Chicks dig that.

 

[Phalex]

I just play it in G minor

 

[HolmeBass]

I vote chords. A chord chart won't steer you wrong. They key is really less important. The chords and their progression also suggest choices in passing tones from chord to chord. Chords are not always going to be diatonic to the key of the song, so sometimes the key can actually steer you wrong.

Also, it might be modal music, where the "key" might actually be a mode of the major or harmonic minor scale. If you assume it is some key based on the key signature (remember, key signature is not the same thing as the key!) you could wind up with a real clambake on your hands.

The chords are where it's at in my opinion.

 

[JimmyM]

Why do we insist on either/or scenarios? It's completely pointless in this situation.

 

[stringtapper]

I vote chords. A chord chart won't steer you wrong. They key is really less important. The chords and their progression also suggest choices in passing tones from chord to chord. Chords are not always going to be diatonic to the key of the song, so sometimes the key can actually steer you wrong.

Also, it might be modal music, where the "key" might actually be a mode of the major or harmonic minor scale. If you assume it is some key based on the key signature (remember, key signature is not the same thing as the key!) you could wind up with a real clambake on your hands.

The chords are where it's at in my opinion.

Again, the whole "either/or" aspect of this discussion is just plain weird.

Understanding diatonic harmony is a tried and true entry point to learning harmony in general. "Understanding diatonic harmony" = understanding how keys and their diatonic chords work. Once that is mastered then learning to deal with non-diatonic harmony becomes much easier.

 

[pappabass]

It all depends if you are musically trained or not. I understand key signatures sharps Flats Exc. I learned that from a previous life as a keyboard player. Then other people especially bass players are pattern players. That's where you get 1 4 5 from. Then mainly guitar players will play by notes, G C D A minor etc. So you basically have two choices telling someone the song is in the key of G or tell them the chord progression to play like a G C D G A minor G. I did not exactly answer your question.

 

[HolmeBass]

Again, the whole "either/or" aspect of this discussion is just plain weird.

Understanding diatonic harmony is a tried and true entry point to learning harmony in general. "Understanding diatonic harmony" = understanding how keys and their diatonic chords work. Once that is mastered then learning to deal with non-diatonic harmony becomes much easier.

The OP is not asking about how to learn diatonic harmony, he's asking whether, when playing a given piece of music, he should focus primarily on the key or the chords.

For my money the *obvious* answer is the chords! Provided the chord chart is right, you can't go wrong if you follow it.

I am not saying never learn diatonic harmony, just answering the OP's question. I use modes myself, but I'm not going to lay that on him. Just answering his question.

 

[joebar]

Emphasis on diatonic.

As someone who knows and understands the major scale and it's modes backward and forward and has known for decades while only having a cursory understanding of all them weird jazz chords, I can say that each day that I study jazz theory it becomes more and more evident that chords is where it's at. One little example in an ocean of oddities, as you must know bassed on your TB profile ... What scale tells you that we commonly raise the 9th on the iii chord of a major scale to avoid the "avoid note" 4th? Ono the other hand, follow the chord and that will save you.

We all learn differently. Scales are very important but put yourself in a less experienced student's shoes. If nobody says "hey, forget the rigidity of a scale for a minute and just trust the chords," only then are they (me) gonna go "holy shtick, now I finally get it." Sure, there are weird and altered exotic scales that were created to facilitate odd stuff (odd stuff like commonly making the V chord major in a minor ii V I, where it SHOULD be minor according to scales most commonly known by regular guys... but the harmonic minor scale was created to facilitate it so that there is an easier, half step between the 7 and 8 ). If one just follows the chords one can get by, especially non-solo instruments.

Again, scales are cool and I'm not picking a fight but I have been there, bewildered by chords that don't fit the rigidity of common scales and the given key signature.... not all too long ago and for a long time. Giving up and just following the chords worked until I have time to more thoroughly understand what is really going on.

I feel this way too.

the best way to understand keys and chords is to actively learn as many songs as you can-any genre.
then you can see reoccurring patterns and how the chords interact with the diatonic chords of a major scale.
I have to give a slight edge to chords here.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Does the key even matter when you have all the chords laid out infront of you?

If you have all the chords in front of you, you can possibly play what you need to play even though you might not be aware of the key. However, the key determines what notes and chords you have to play. So if you are aware of the notes and their relationship to each other in a key, you would already know what chords to play. Because of this, it is important to know about the key you're in. Does this make sense?

 

[HolmeBass]

But one should start somewhere. Starting with borrowed chords, secondary dominants, and chromatic harmonies sounds like a disaster waiting to happen compared to starting with diatonic harmony.

Remember, the OP was asking which one to study, and once again the answer is both, because the two are interrelated and starting with the diatonic chords within major and minor is a tried and true way to start studying harmony.

Man, the OP is starting with some sheet music on his music stand. You're saying he needs to completely understand diatonic harmony to play that music - then what happens when a non-diatonic chord comes along? Should the OP trust *the chord* or the *key signature* - thus ignoring the chord? Obviously you follow the chord chart, right?

All I am saying is trust the chords in your chart. If you have questions about why some chords don't appear to fit in the key of the song, those are very good questions. Study diatonic harmony and you will learn. That won't happen very quickly. Could take years to really understand it well enough to diagram every chord progression you come across.

So while understanding diatonic harmony is a worthy and noble goal, it's not a survival strategy to get through the next gig this weekend. The survival strategy is *trust the chords*. They will get you through the gig!

 

[DavC]

BOTH ... along with the proper scales ... they all need to go together ... and make most sense when put together ..

 

[lfmn16]

When walking in a straight line should you concentrate on the right foot or the left foot?

 

[Ant Illington]

So you're… agreeing with me then? It sounds like it.

Because altered and non-diatonic chords are inherently more advanced of a topic than keys and diatonic chords are. Having the foundation of understanding diatonic harmony is important to then build upon and add the more advanced chords.




But anyone who has studied how diatonic harmony works would not think this is "odd" at all because they would know that in order for a functional V-I relationship to exist within a minor key the 7th scale degree must be raised to make the V chord major, thus the origin of the harmonic minor scale. In other words, a major V chord IS diatonic in a minor key.

So having a full grasp of how keys work makes the example you gave a non-issue.

I'll say it again, I wasnt picking a fight or saying anyone is wrong or that scales should not be given serious attention. I think I even said that scales should be learned. That you can't accept another opinion as being valid, an opinion which is my exact experience, betrays your stubbornness and bias in this matter.

To be sure I don't think that a "functional V- i" in minor key is odd other than it doesn't fit with the regular guy's knowledge of minors. But one can play it without knowing the harmonic minor scale.

The vast majority of amateur musicians don't endeavor to learn every in and out of theory. They essentially only know Major and its modes; however, they might certainly enjoy playing some jazz standards and they can, indeed, get by with only chords, especially on bass and if they don't need to solo.

Unless one is going to music school or spending big bucks on private lessons (how many months or years would a beginner be taking lessons before he gets to advanced harmony? Thousands of dollars, that's how long). Can't he play advanced harmony chords for fun and even profit without learning the scales? Sure he can.

Again, everyone isn't the same. I have played music for over 30 years now. Classical clarinet for 10 years, bass for 25. Functional keyboardist. 2 semesters of college theory. 2- 8 week courses at the Bloom School of Jazz in Chicago (never once got past discussing modes of Major, primarily Dorian- but I did have to support chords that didn't fit the key signature even though I sometimes had no idea how those odd chords were made to work), private lessons from working orchestral and jazz bassists with Master's degrees. All this and lots of learning but never got to studying the deep stuff because there is so much to learn before that stuff. However, I enjoy jazz. Despite not knowing the jazzier scales as well as I know my Major scales and related modes, I can go many miles just following chords (though I am gradually learning the details but I am only an amateur so time is limited).

The stubbornness of MUSTS can be very disillusioning and off-putting for amateurs who just want to make a little music. And your arrogance in dismissing my exact and real experience as a "non-issue" is patently ignorant and can stunt the growth of other people in the same boat as I was in, and from reading TB I can assure you that we are many.

All people are not the same. We don't all have the same goals and/or abilities. Keep that in mind. Some genius musicians don't even know chord names, let alone scales, and they've done just fine. Maybe they should tell you toiling in relative anonymity that your opinion is invalid or a "non-issue"because you waste your time studying theory instead of simply having a genius ear, the true measure of a REAL musician? I'm out of this convo now. I just want the other amateurs to know that they don't have to listen to dogma like yours in order to enjoy playing music that is more interesting than allowed by the simple scales that they may know at the moment.

 

[stringtapper]

I'm not going to take the time to answer some of these comments directly because they're going in circles with the "either/or" stuff.

I'll just reiterate that the basics of chord construction are all contained within the study of diatonic harmony. Knowing how keys work IS knowing about chords, and moreover that understanding gives them a good foundation that will enable them to better understand all of the other types of chords they will find in a lead sheet.

 

[monsterthompson]

They are very closely related, but if you had to pick one, i'd say chords. knowing the chords will tell you the road map for the song. you'll get them in the order they are being played, and that progression is helpful for building walking lines, connecting the current chord to the approaching one, and generally knowing the verse/chorus/bridge structure. Also, once you know a number system, like Nashville, you can figure out a 1-4-5 or a 2-5-1 or any other progression has lines which are good building blocks you can cross apply if somebody calls a different key. Know a good bass line for a 1-4-5 in A? Well, use that pattern, shifted up a few frets if someone calls a 1-4-5 in C. It also helps when substitutions start getting thrown around.

Knowing the key tells you which chords might be present in that song, and thus which notes will be in those chords. However, knowing the chords tells you exactly which chords will be present in that song. Also consider that some songs might use progressions with chords from outside of the key. Also consider there is a time and a place for notes outside of the key.

 

[stringtapper]

That you can't accept another opinion as being valid, an opinion which is my exact experience, betrays your stubbornness and bias in this matter.

And exactly which opinion of yours did I not accept?

The stubbornness of MUSTS can be very disillusioning and off-putting for amateurs who just want to make a little music.

Where did I say one "must" do anything?

And your arrogance in dismissing my exact and real experience as a "non-issue" is patently ignorant and can stunt the growth of other people in the same boat as I was in, and from reading TB I can assure you that we are many.

Did you actually read my response about the non-issue? All I said was that if one is immersed in diatonic harmony that a major V chord in a minor key isn't going to seem "odd." That's all I said. Full stop.

Maybe they should tell you toiling in relative anonymity that your opinion is invalid or a "non-issue"because you waste your time studying theory instead of simply having a genius ear, the true measure of a REAL musician?

If someone did say that to me it would be a completely different thing from what I said to you. The "non-issue" comment was about something very specific, that being the fact that a major V chord in a minor key isn't going to seem "odd" to someone who has studied diatonic harmony.

I'm out of this convo now. I just want the other amateurs to know that they don't have to listen to dogma like yours in order to enjoy playing music that is more interesting than allowed by the simple scales that they may know at the moment.

Let the record reflect (again) that I never said anyone MUST do anything. I was merely conveying the truth that keys and chords are inherently interrelated and that there is a good reason that the thorough study of diatonic harmony has been a staple of beginning and intermediate music education for some time.

 

[stringtapper]

they are very closely related, but if you had to pick one, i'd say chords. knowing the chords will tell you the road map for the song. you'll get them in the order they are being played, and that progression is helpful for building walking lines, connecting the current chord to the approaching one, and generally knowing the verse/chorus/bridge structure. Also, once you know a number system, like Nashville, you can figure out a 1-4-5 or a 2-5-1 or any other progression has lines which are good building blocks you can cross apply if somebody calls a different key. Know a good bass line for a 1-4-5 in A? Well, use that pattern, shifted up a few frets if someone calls a 1-4-5 in C. It also helps when substitutions start getting thrown around.

Knowing the key tells you which chords might be present in that song, and thus which notes will be in those chords. However, knowing the chords tells you exactly which chords will be present in that song. Also consider that some songs might use progressions with chords from outside of the key. Also consider there is a time and a place for notes outside of the key.

Again, this post REALLY highlights why it's such a weird question in the first place.

The idea of there being some kind of 1:1 choice between whether to "pay attention" (?) to chords or keys is just bizarre. I'm not even sure what "focusing on the key" would really even mean in this context. The key of Bb major is the key of Bb major regardless of the piece of music in question. Without knowing what the actual music is then knowing the key doesn't help at all. I think that's what the "pro-chord" wing (lol) of this thread is coming from. But if you think about it for minute it's a really trivial point to make.

Perhaps the confusion here is that:

1. knowing how keys work

…and…

2. knowing the key of the particular piece of music you're working on

…are not being understood as two different things?

Seems like the people voting for chords (again, lol) are talking about number 2?

For the record, I have been talking about number 1.

 

[stringtapper]

Actually, I would like to hear what the OP imagines the process of "focusing on the key" would be when looking at a lead sheet to try to understand their question a bit better.

 

[lfmn16]

Why do we insist on either/or scenarios? It's completely pointless in this situation.

+1

Actually in most situations. Would you rather have a bass that plays so good you need to go smoke a cigarette after you play it, but sounds like hippos farting in a scum filled pond, or a bass that is unplayable, but sounds like the angels singing?