Keys vs Chords - what should I focus on more?

[JimmyM]

Word. But that's ok, it just creates more opportunities for us

 

[Ant Illington]

depends on your goal
following the chords on the chart will tell you what to play
learning diatonic harmony will give you insight into why the chords work for that key

hey, mambo. I'm still waiting a month for your "insight into why the [following] chords work":

Me to you: I still wonder about the next odd progression Cmi6 - Bb7 - Ab7 - G7, particularly how/why that Ab7 works rather than the AbMaj7 that I can't explain with the melodic minor, natural minor or major scale. Any idea? Is it just like the Dominant I IV V blues thing? it just is?

Haha, just busting chops.

People, I know diatonic harmony and scales inside and out but it doesn't explain all the exceptions in jazz nor would I need to know scales in order to read a chord progression. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I know scales but diatonic scales, but the "key" was the original question, and "the key" often presents more exceptions than rules in jazz. So the correct answer, OP, is EAR. Work on your EAR. With an ear and knowing how to read chords, you're gold. Learn scales but don't stick to them rigidly because you will drive yourself crazy trying to make things fit which will never be directly explained by scale or key.

 

[JimmyM]

Learn scales but don't stick to them rigidly because you will drive yourself crazy trying to make things fit which will never be directly explained by scale or key.

That is SOOOOOOOO the truth! I've had people ask me what scales or modes I like to use to decide what to play, and my answer is always the same..."The chromatic scale."

 

[mambo4]

I still wonder about the next odd progression Cmi6 - Bb7 - Ab7 - G7, particularly how/why that Ab7 works rather than the AbMaj7

since you threw down the gauntlet

in a straight C minor key it should be an AbMaj7, that is true.
One theory excuse for using Ab7 would be calling it a "borrowed chord" from some other key (another might be calling it a b5 substitution for a D7.)
If you pick apart the individual chord tones you may also find voice leading implications

but it still sounds like a i - bVII - bVI- V because the triads still work (C min - Bb - Ab - G)

It's the sonic nature of a dominant 7 chord that it wants to go somewhere.
It's usually down a 5th / up a 4th -but it doesn't have to be.
You can generally take any diatonic chord on the way to the tonic, and tweak it into a Dominant 7th, to good effect.
The Beatles did it all the time, and its the foundation of the blues.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

the next odd progression Cmi6 - Bb7 - Ab7 - G7, particularly how/why that Ab7 works rather than the AbMaj7 that I can't explain with the melodic minor, natural minor or major scale.

Ant,
We had some INTERESTING thread about the Andalusian cadence here at TB (or maybe I've deleted it).
i–VII–VI–V progression with respect to the minor mode.

 

[Ant Illington]

since you threw down the gauntlet

in a straight C minor key it should be an AbMaj7, that is true.
One theory excuse for using Ab7 would be calling it a "borrowed chord" from some other key (another might be calling it a b5 substitution for a D7.)
If you pick apart the individual chord tones you may also find voice leading implications

but it still sounds like a i - bVII - bVI- V because the triads still work (C min - Bb - Ab - G)

It's the sonic nature of a dominant 7 chord that it wants to go somewhere.
It's usually down a 5th / up a 4th -but it doesn't have to be.
You can generally take any diatonic chord on the way to the tonic, and tweak it into a Dominant 7th, to good effect.
The Beatles did it all the time, and its the foundation of the blues.

Thanks. I'll have to check that out later... just when I had given up for almost a month trying to understand the "why's" while I instead focus on developing my ear, sight-reading skills and opening up the fretboard! Its a real challenge for us old people who are trying to play catch-up; not only are our brains not as soft but we want to go to fast and get results and conquer more.

I think of being a kid playing clarinet and learning a new "cool" song... I would play it 100 times, There was no desire to quickly get to another song, time didn't matter. A song became one with me (well, with my fingers at least). I never did that with bass, neither with songs nor especially with the building blocks.... just learned a new something and moved on to the next thing as soon as possible. WRONG!

 

[Febs]

Are you talking about passing notes or the higher process of walking from one chord to the next?

Two different things.

Sure, if you are on beat 2 or 3 of the walk - yeah, your logic holds.

That was my point. I was just trying to provide a simple example for the original poster of where knowledge of the key could inform the choice of what to play. I wasn't talking about leading tones at all.

 

[Lowness]

That was my point. I was just trying to provide a simple example for the original poster of where knowledge of the key could inform the choice of what to play. I wasn't talking about leading tones at all.

So, what are saying is: you need to know scales to be able to play in tune.

Different.

 

[Oldschool94]

Keys and how chords relate to them. So especially keys. But knowing what chords are made of is very helpful. Take your average chord chart you might read–

Just staring at it, you may not be super sure which key it is in. But if you know your chord tones, you can reasonably play a bass line to this by linking up roots and fifths with appropriate walk ups. Basically, you don't have to know the key to play this chart passably.

But if someone asked you to solo over this? You would need to know the key, and any key changes. Simply playing between all the chord tones would probably make for an unsatisfying solo.



It is in E, by the way. Thinking about all the temporary modulations in this song is fun. I've never heard it before this post.