KSD...Lesson Learned, pt. II

[Bass Viking]

Only if you claim to have a long scale neck.

Well, my Dingy (Dingwall) does measure 37"...

 

[sflajimmy]

This is getting interesting and I obviously have nothing better to do tonight than comment on this pissing contest before it gets shut down. As casual observer I would say if my name were on a product whether it was a licensing agreement or not (I'm sure you didn't do it out of the kindness of your heart) I would be concerned over the quality and customer service involved with that said instrument because it can and will have a negative impact on my regular product line if there is a problem with it. This is business 101. This reeks of the old "it's not my problem mentality" It is your problem Mr Smith because as stated before your name is on those basses.

 

[Bass Viking]

Surely you jest. With all the identity theft and credit card fraud out there the last thing we need to be doing is sending our credit card # 's to people.....Those inquiries come with the territory of posting a bass for sale on any forum. Some maybe frivolous and annoying but as a responsible seller you need to answer them.

I think he must have been joking. No one in their right mind would send their credit card # to a stranger.

I do make one exception: when the vendor is located in Nigeria.

 

[Expendable Bass]

Mr. Smith, whose instruments I greatly admire, has no control over the quality of construction of these KSD instruments. He only had control over the initial deal, which has now gone slightly awry, and you certainly shouldn't just lay into him for making a business mistake. If you have a problem with a KSD instrument, have a chat with the creator -- Not Ken Smith.

Just my two cents.

-Jacob Johnson

 

[bongomania]

I love how Ken is all insistent on people using their "real names" in order to give their posts credibility; yet his name printed on every KSD bass is not supposed to infer any credible association with him at all.

The truss rod nut not being a "proper" size, by all accounts (other than Ken's), sounds like a bad design. The bass is a "Ken Smith Design".

Of course I know he actually had nothing to do with the truss rods, or many of the other design elements used in these basses. Heck, other threads have demonstrated credibly that KSD basses are just re-branded Corts. But he sold his name to whoever was responsible for this boondoggle, and that is a shame. All of this "it's not my problem" crap was germinated right then.

 

[NJL]

I love how Ken is all insistent on people using their "real names" in order to give their posts credibility; yet his name printed on every KSD bass is not supposed to infer any credible association with him at all.

Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooo O no you dihint!!!!

 

[Buster Brown]

Wow......interesting thread. I never had any idea that these sorts of things transpired.

I play a Ric - weird truss rods. That being said, they make it rather clear that "for truss rod adjustment, a 1/4 inch nut driver is needed." OR, you can order THEIR 1/4 inch nut driver for the "proper" adjustment.

I saved the $22 and used my own.......

One last point. I wouldn't know Ken Smith if I stood beside him. However, after reading the (*sigh*) length and breadth of this post, I can honestly say that I'm glad that I am both a Ric and a Fender player........

 

[davec]

ok first Ken,
My name is Dave Cody. I own a Ken Smith, and like Ken, at least as well as I know him (a few phone calls,post ect.)

By Ken contacting Brooklyn Gear thats about as much as one can expect. Laklands, G&L's are sold as the brand. If you want to compare that to Smith basses the burners are really the only fare comparison, not KSD.



Attn: Ken Smith
Just put up a (yet another) post, and let us know that this wasn't what you had in mind. I imagine that the thought was You would give a little input, help them design a similar pre-amp and make a little money, Adam would bring a quality product and make a little money from the Smith reputation.
If I'm right just let us know, if the quality doesn't improve are you going to do anything.

 

[Lo end PUNCH]

KSD-Ken Smith Design

Hey people, the mans got a point, he doesn't manufacture the basses. Period. His names on it with design behind it and that is all it has to be. No different if you designed it, tapped a company to build it and they built it like a piece of crap, you can express your concerns but ultimately its that company's screw up, not the person who designed it. MY beef is that they were j basses and not KS body styles.
just my 2 cents.

 

[Guiseppe]

After sitting here reading through all this, I went back and re-read my original post and decided to comment. This has all been a little bit over the top.

First off, I was probably not the most compassionate person by publicly addressing my frustration on the whole topic of getting a truss rod wrench for my bass. This whole thing actually began on a different thread (closed by mods as this one will likely be) because the topic came up that some KSD owner's were fighting a stripped truss rod due to an oddly sized (4.5mm?) nut. I realized I didn't get a truss rod with my KSD, so I inquired about it to BG.

Next, I'm not complaining about my bass at all. I've done a couple mods on it, but the core neck/body/tailpiece has great workmanship, and aside from possibly shaving the neck a bit I love it and gig it regularly.

Ken, I fully understand the difference between KSD and your basses. I've had your axes on my own short list for years, and someday...

 

[throbgod13]

i thought that KSD was associated with Ken Smith Basses..

with imports, these problems always seem to happen at some point.. and it's true the importer does not know what is in the box when it arrives from Korea/China.. and it's always after the sale that these problems come out from the customer.. and the importer has to deal with it..

this particular problem isn't that big of a deal, speaking of the TR wrenches..

but, i do find it a huge deal not having an actual truss rod installed.. this is a major problem.. and the dealers should have known this from doing presale setups on them..

i don't agree with Ken Smith's attitude toward this.. the reason you are getting flak, and it's getting *your* companies name dragged in the mud, is specifically because your name is on the imports.. and due to the advertisements, and the press on the KSDs.. one is drawn to the conclusion that KSD is associated with Ken Smith Basses..

regardless of how you know what the facts are.. the average consumer thinks that Ken Smith Basses are behind KSD basses due to your name actually being on them.. and heavily used to market them..

in a way, it smacks of misrepresentation.. not on the part of Ken Smith Basses.. but on the part of Brooklyn Gear using the Ken Smith name in a way that would lead an average consumer to assume that your company backs the KSD lines..

IMO, to keep Ken Smith Basses out of the mud, you should exercise stricter control of the use of your name.. but, as it is now, this is the reason you are getting flak over KSD.. because people think you actually are KSD..

 

[BobXboB]

I love how Ken is all insistent on people using their "real names" in order to give their posts credibility; yet his name printed on every KSD bass is not supposed to infer any credible association with him at all.

BOOOYAH!

 

[phxlbrmpf]

Aces! Another Thread Set On Fire By a Ken Smith Post!

I've come across a lot of posts of his that rubbed me the wrong way lately. His basses still look neat, though, I guess.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Humm.. some good points here, most of them have been heard before but some with a different twist. I will try to address them with some related quotes (copy and paste) that came in since my last post. If I miss one of the topics or semi-topics here, just ask again so I can get to it. I do not at all mind answering questions. I just don't care for the upsets that arise after I give an honest answer so be advised that I do not 'pull any punches' (full contact TaeKwanDo) and I wont be throwing the first punch either!

You seem to want to disassociate yourself from something that has your name on it. Am I reading that correctly?

No, I don't other than to make people under stand what I do, have done or can do concerning anything with the KSD's.

Thing is, car designers don't put a reference of their name in their cars. Pininfarina is an Italian car designer that works for Hyndai, and for Ferrari. They don't call Hyundais, "Pininfarina Designs." They are smarter than that.

One example is (and maybe I gave a poor comparison to begin with) the Ford Explorer Eddie Bower model. {I already make the Gibson Les Paul comparison but no one responded to that one. I guess you can't fight truth so one might try to just pick a fight any which way). My point is that if your Ford EB model has a problem do you go and call EB or Ford? All of the KSD marketing is done by Brooklyn Gear, not KSB. IN the beginning we stocked some like a local store and put it on our home page on the Web as a quick boost of advertising. Due to all of the confusion as well as problems we can not solve being only the 'designer' we have pulled it off of the home page.

There is responsibility when you put your name on a bass, whether you have control over it or not.

Don't get upset because people see a bass with your name on it and don't understand that you only "designed" the bass, which by the way, was really designed by Fender in 1959, or so. I think your key contribution to this bass was mainly the electronics (specifically the preamp), which was just the old designs used in your basses years ago. Anybody can "design" a bass clone. Sorry if I'm wrong and these basses have some special secret design formula.

And obviously the reason for associating your name with these brand was a marketing decision. Smith is a reputable name..."let's call the brand Ken Smith Design so people think they are getting a quality bass...." That's the only reason I can think of why the KSD brand name.

BTW, I thought that you had had enough of this KSD BS here and were not visiting TalkBass anymore. . .

Ok, several subjects above so I will do my best.
The responsibility of my name should only be that the portions of my input are worthy of purchase. Unlike all the other 'design' names used and imports mentioned earlier those are bought, marketed and sold (or contracted out) by the parent company whose name is used. In this case, it is not. IT was a Bass the BG brought to me and asked for my input to 'tweak' an already done to death' design and in return, my name is mentioned/used and I will collect (hopefully) a small royalty on the sales of the Basses. This was not a marketing decision for me to go out and get this done. This idea came to me from BG which at that time were 3 principals. One was a former wholesaler of my Strings for over a decade. One was a former employee of my company in NY and later Tobias. Both of these two sold and distributed at one time together or individually the Korean line of Tobias Basses. To jump ahead here the name 'Cort Factory' has been mentioned as 're-branded' Corts. This is not the case exactly because Cort doesn't make these. The Factory's name is Rira. This is the same factory that from what I have been told made the Tobias imports as well. Each factory will make what ever you ask them to make to a degree. It is not just a decal change, trust me on that if you can. And.. on the KSD BS here and me posting.. I think this is great advertising here getting to go head to head on line clearing things up. This has been great for my REAL business and the savings of advertising dollars I have enjoyed is way way more than the amount of money I have made with KSDs or could hope to ever make. Thank's guys for all the free advertising.. (I know someones blood is boiling out there now.. lol..)

As casual observer I would say if my name were on a product whether it was a licensing agreement or not (I'm sure you didn't do it out of the kindness of your heart) I would be concerned over the quality and customer service involved with that said instrument because it can and will have a negative impact on my regular product line if there is a problem with it. This is business 101. This reeks of the old "it's not my problem mentality" It is your problem Mr Smith because as stated before your name is on those basses.

Humm... where have I heard that before?.. humm.. let's see..
Kindness? No.. Business and pleasure, yes..
I am concerned but my main problem is association and actual responsibility. BG has had a few problems and has solved them along the way. At the previous Namm shows I attended with them I had sit-down meetings in the booth during the Show with all of the heads of the Rira Factory 1 on 1 going over every QC concern of the KSD's. Adam or in the past one or two of the other principals would sit at my side at the 'round table' and confer. If a more expensive Jack or tuner was needed, it was them that had to approve the cost. My Job (assumed) was to explain to the Koreans what was needed to fix the problems as the arose each year. Each year it was something different and most TBers are not aware of all the growth the KSD's went thru in design and QC but still it was always the intention to get the job done... as stated above, it is MY problem because YOU believe it is. I am out here trying to explain things as clear as day and I surely hope progress is being made.

Mr. Smith, whose instruments I greatly admire, has no control over the quality of construction of these KSD instruments. He only had control over the initial deal, which has now gone slightly awry, and you certainly shouldn't just lay into him for making a business mistake. If you have a problem with a KSD instrument, have a chat with the creator -- Not Ken Smith.

Just my two cents.

Thank you for your Post. Mostly I only address the negative stuff in hopes of fixing it but I must also address those that openly support my efforts here in the Bass world.

I didn't have 'control' over the initial deal either. I just had hope and trust. I still have faith in Adam of BG to get this project back on line. I have patience in the matter. Please join me on that. The other 2 principals of BG are no longer. Adam if he feels up to it and cares to can comment as to why but this is personal business that is not something that needs to go on line. Companies make personal changes all the time as well as partnerships changing and dissolving. It is not for me to comment other than he is the only principal now and I support him.

love how Ken is all insistent on people using their "real names" in order to give their posts credibility; yet his name printed on every KSD bass is not supposed to infer any credible association with him at all.

The truss rod nut not being a "proper" size, by all accounts (other than Ken's), sounds like a bad design. The bass is a "Ken Smith Design".

Of course I know he actually had nothing to do with the truss rods, or many of the other design elements used in these basses. Heck, other threads have demonstrated credibly that KSD basses are just re-branded Corts. But he sold his name to whoever was responsible for this boondoggle, and that is a shame. All of this "it's not my problem" crap was germinated right then.

Ok, more 'bad blood' here as well as misunderstanding and misconception. The TR Nut IS the proper size. I told you what it was. It is very common on Korean made instruments, period. The Wrench Kit is banded around the headstock in the box when shipped from the Factory in Korea. What happens to that missing wrench or how someone uses it is not my fault and NEVER will be. Sorry! ... Can improvements be made to the TR so it is more 'idiot proof' (as we say in the biz) and easier to use. Well, until the TB poster here, I wasn't aware there was a problem. BG knows that some are less gifted with tools so lets see if a change can be made here. The KSD is just one of many brands with the exact same TR fwiw. Also, why can't a dealer that sells these sell you a standard sized Wrench? They sell 9v batteries, right? You think they want the repair business all to them selves so they hide the tools you need? Well, after you strip the TR nut, BLAME someone.. oh.. that famous name on the head stock.. Blame him.. he did it, he did it... BULL!.. This is 'Mob Mentality'

By Ken contacting Brooklyn Gear thats about as much as one can expect. Laklands, G&L's are sold as the brand. If you want to compare that to Smith basses the burners are really the only fare comparison, not KSD.

Attn: Ken Smith
Just put up a (yet another) post, and let us know that this wasn't what you had in mind. I imagine that the thought was You would give a little input, help them design a similar pre-amp and make a little money, Adam would bring a quality product and make a little money from the Smith reputation.
If I'm right just let us know, if the quality doesn't improve are you going to do anything.

This is a good point. WE/I designed and ordered the Burners, set-up them up and did all the sales, marketing and distribution with the exception of a few that were sold back then in Japan directly from the factory and without any serial numbers or QC from me. On those I was paid a small royalty. It was the Morris factory that made them and the owner is a close friend of mine and a mentor as well. In the case of the Burners, I took care of all the problems if and when they came up. With the KSD's, it's simply just not my Bass or business. I was and am ONLY a consultant. maybe.. the 'concerned people' here (polite was of saying the complainers) should tell BG how they would like the Bass marketed so there is less confusion. I certainly do NOT agree with BG using the text 'KenSmithBasses' on his website as a hyperlink to the KSD's. That I agree is a HUGE mistake and I lost count on how many times I told them to change that to avoid confusion. On the Preamp mention above, Korea had already copied my BT circuit before I was ever involved. What I did was just make sure it functioned correctly as intended. I can't tell the Koreans how to engineer electronics. That they will do as they please like it or not. I have had produced a few prototype circuits that 'drop-in' the KSD's to replace the factory circuits and when we have time, will make these available as aftermarket electronics. They will also fit 'Some' (not all) of the other 'LIKE' made )original or not) brands out there.

KSD-Ken Smith Design

Hey people, the mans got a point, he doesn't manufacture the basses. Period. His names on it with design behind it and that is all it has to be. No different if you designed it, tapped a company to build it and they built it like a piece of crap, you can express your concerns but ultimately its that company's screw up, not the person who designed it. MY beef is that they were j basses and not KS body styles.
just my 2 cents.

Ok.. this is true but on the 'beef' part I was just doing my Job. If the design shape was not available to use we could have gone with my BSR. At that point it would be a Burner model but from Korea and not a KSD Jazz as initially planned by BG.

First off, I was probably not the most compassionate person by publicly addressing my frustration on the whole topic of getting a truss rod wrench for my bass. This whole thing actually began on a different thread (closed by mods as this one will likely be) because the topic came up that some KSD owner's were fighting a stripped truss rod due to an oddly sized (4.5mm?) nut. I realized I didn't get a truss rod with my KSD, so I inquired about it to BG.

Thanks for Posting again. I think we went over this and yesterday I pulled out a KSD I had in stock and it was a 4mm wrench that we used to adjust it, not a 4.5mm. That doesn't mean that the factory isn't capable of just changing the wrench end of the Nut between batches. This is Korean manuf. They do as they please when they please, economics 'driving the bus' with a 'oh, sorry' at the end when questioned!

This poster in 2 sections.. needs to be;

i thought that KSD was associated with Ken Smith Basses..

with imports, these problems always seem to happen at some point.. and it's true the importer does not know what is in the box when it arrives from Korea/China.. and it's always after the sale that these problems come out from the customer.. and the importer has to deal with it..

this particular problem isn't that big of a deal, speaking of the TR wrenches..

but, i do find it a huge deal not having an actual truss rod installed.. this is a major problem.. and the dealers should have known this from doing presale setups on them..

Not having a Rod installed? Really? On this planet? Help this guy out please.. I got up at 5am, my dog watched me type till he had to 'GO', then I walked him and came back to finish up. 6:45 now and I am not yet done. BTW, will the other guys with 'their' names on the Basses come up here and go toe to toe?

Part 2;

i don't agree with Ken Smith's attitude toward this.. the reason you are getting flak, and it's getting *your* companies name dragged in the mud, is specifically because your name is on the imports.. and due to the advertisements, and the press on the KSDs.. one is drawn to the conclusion that KSD is associated with Ken Smith Basses..

regardless of how you know what the facts are.. the average consumer thinks that Ken Smith Basses are behind KSD basses due to your name actually being on them.. and heavily used to market them..

in a way, it smacks of misrepresentation.. not on the part of Ken Smith Basses.. but on the part of Brooklyn Gear using the Ken Smith name in a way that would lead an average consumer to assume that your company backs the KSD lines..

IMO, to keep Ken Smith Basses out of the mud, you should exercise stricter control of the use of your name.. but, as it is now, this is the reason you are getting flak over KSD.. because people think you actually are KSD..

Ok, someone give this guy a hug.. he needs one and I am fresh out..

Ok, I can't help what people think or how they interpret what they read. If you watered down every advertisement of every product some, no one would but much. HYPE is business weather true or false.

I agree there is confusion. Two reasons are that most of the other 'Design' brandings are produced and sold by the same company and not a 'Licensed' product. The other is that this is the first time our name was used this way. If you read the ads and marketing with an 'open mind' and not a 'pre-conceived' conclusion, you will be able to see it is quite clear what is going on. I see it. You don't have to agree. Also, I have mention what I don't agree with as well concerning their use of my name.

Aces! Another Thread Set On Fire By a Ken Smith Post!

I've come across a lot of posts of his that rubbed me the wrong way lately. His basses still look neat, though, I guess.

Rub a dub a dub..

Ok.. almost 7am now.. Time to get up (off the computer), get out, go to the diner and have a nice big breakfast, go into the shop and finish up some Smith Basses that need to ship out to waiting parties.

Bye for now..

 

[BobXboB]

With the KSD's, it's simply just not my Bass or business. I was and am ONLY a consultant. maybe.. the 'concerned people' here (polite was of saying the complainers) should tell BG how they would like the Bass marketed so there is less confusion. I certainly do NOT agree with BG using the text 'KenSmithBasses' on his website as a hyperlink to the KSD's. That I agree is a HUGE mistake and I lost count on how many times I told them to change that to avoid confusion.

If someone is stealing your name with out your permission you can file a DMCA with their webhost and it will be down in just 10 days. I'm not sure why you think this is the responsibility of other people to go after BG but if you really want it to end in can be down soon with a single fax. You just have to want it to come down.

 

[DrGroovenstein]

And by that rationale, everyone who leaves positive feedback could be a shill. If I gave you my name and home address, how would that in any way help you figure out which one I was, competitor or shill? (It wouldn't)


And I respectfully submit that if you think posting your full name and home address on the internet in this day and age is a good idea (alongside photos of your thousands of dollars worth of gear, to boot), you might be a little naïve yourself.

Yes, you have a point there

 

[Planet Boulder]

I thought we had resolved this on the first thread. This issue needs to be laid to rest so that we don't continue to rehash the same points.

Ken Smith is NOT associated with these basses. He consulted a little at the beginning, but he did not bless the headstocks with his name - that branding was out of his control and he has REPEATEDLY asked them to remove his name.

If you want a Ken Smith bass, buy a Ken Smith bass. Anything else falls outside of his auspices of control, quality and craftsmanship. Period.

Can we please just drop this?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I thought we had resolved this on the first thread. This issue needs to be laid to rest so that we don't continue to rehash the same points.

Ken Smith is NOT associated with these basses. He consulted a little at the beginning, but he did not bless the headstocks with his name - that branding was out of his control and he has REPEATEDLY asked them to remove his name.

If you want a Ken Smith bass, buy a Ken Smith bass. Anything else falls outside of his auspices of control, quality and craftsmanship. Period.

Can we please just drop this?

The Head has KSD (which is ok as planned) not KenSmithBasses. It was the KSB reference on the BG Website that I have asked to have removed to be KSD, not KSB so there might be less confusion. It is obvious that no matter what, someone will remain confused about something.

 

[bongomania]

he did not bless the headstocks with his name - that branding was out of his control and he has REPEATEDLY asked them to remove his name.

As I read Ken's own posts above, it sounds like he was fully cognizant of their intention to put his name on the headstock and (initially) use his name for marketing. He has "repeatedly" asked them not to use his name in their marketing ad copy, but has not said anything about asking them to change the name to something other than "Ken Smith Design".

 

[davec]

Thread Highjack**** Thread Highjack

If TB deleted all the Shots at Ken and Jaquo would it be just be "my Bongo rocks" post and GFS