Latin Chord Progressions

[IamGroot]

Been reviewing Oscar Stagnaro' excellent Latin Bass Book and some tiny theory questions pop up in the very first exercise. I hear the idiom, I just cant reason out the theory.

The first bassline pattern in thetumbao exercise uses roots/5s over these chords:
Cmi6 / Cmi6/ G7. /G7
Key signature is three flats = C minor.
I presume the mi6 means a natural 6 instead of a b6 and that is confusing to me. Is he signaling melodic minor instead of harmonic minor? Any help from the montuno piano players out there?

Maybe more questions, but let's figure this out first.

 

[IamGroot]

The natural 6 is common to the Cmajor monguno, but Cminor?

 

[Don Kasper]

The natural 6 is common to the Cmajor monguno, but Cminor?

Any form of a "Cminxxxxx" chord can be the Tonic home "key", despite what the (ancient and anachronistic) Key Signature of "3 flats" suggests. Cmin (natural 6) 9 is a beautiful Tonic chord. Key Signatures are becoming less and less relevant as music evolves.
Cmin6/9 is very common in the jazz, pop, and funk worlds.
Also - Play this at a piano for i - VI - ii - V in Cminor :
Cmin6/9, A7#9b13, Dmin7b5, G7#9b13. (the VI7 chord of A7#9b13 works beautifully there, damn the Key Signature.) I don't often find it useful to try and ascribe a single scale for a i - VI - ii - V progression. As a matter of fact, I find it limiting, both Harmonically and Melodically.
IMFO, of course.
Just my $0.03.
Thanks.

 

[IamGroot]

Thanks, Don.
So the answer is there is no magic bullet, which is kind of what I was hoping for, cuz the next 11 patterns were difficult to put in one box.

 

[Wasnex]

Been reviewing Oscar Stagnaro' excellent Latin Bass Book and some tiny theory questions pop up in the very first exercise. I hear the idiom, I just cant reason out the theory.

The first bassline pattern in thetumbao exercise uses roots/5s over these chords:
Cmi6 / Cmi6/ G7. /G7
Key signature is three flats = C minor.
I presume the mi6 means a natural 6 instead of a b6 and that is confusing to me. Is he signaling melodic minor instead of harmonic minor? Any help from the montuno piano players out there?

Maybe more questions, but let's figure this out first.

Let me start by saying I haven't a clue, but I was bored so I thought I would explore some and offer whatever help I can.

In the first lesson, I don't think you need to worry about the 6th scale degree in the bass line, but Cmin6 implies a minor triad with a major 6th. Same notes as A-7b5. Cmin6 = C,Eb,G,A and A-7b5 = A,C,Eb,G

Maybe this video will help.


Note in the first example in the video (key of C Min), the 6th scale degree is minor for D-7b5, but major for the Cmin chord. Also notice there are Bbs and B naturals. Also notice the Db approach tone in the bass leading to the C minor chord. Did I miss anything else you think is stands out?

Seems like a lot of chromaticism is used to create harmonic tension. If you listen to this style of music you should eventually learn to anticipate where the chromaticisms should occur.

Unfortunately I don't think this gives a definitive answer regarding whether the 6th scale degree should always be major over the minor i chord, but I think the answer is no.

Here's an example closer to the lesson your describe...except the i chord is Cminor versus Cmin6.

The image is from the following page, which also has other examples you might want to look at.
Two common salsa chord progressions

Good luck.

 

[Wasnex]

I jazz I believe we are fairly accustom to hearing Dorian mode over a minor i chord, regardless of what the key signature says. So, I don't find it surprising to see Cmin6 in C minor.

This page explains that the reason has to do with chord voicing and extensions, I.E. we raise the b13 when we are playing chords in jazz.

Open this page and search for the term "Dorian". The explanation is at the 5th of 8 instances of the word. Everything You Don't Know About Minor Harmony in Jazz • Jazzadvice

You will probably want to back up and read a bit before that point.

Here an image from the page that also explains.

 

[IamGroot]

Let me start by saying I haven't a clue, but I was bored so I thought I would explore some and offer whatever help I can.

In the first lesson, I don't think you need to worry about the 6th scale degree in the bass line, but Cmin6 implies a minor triad with a major 6th. Same notes as A-7b5. Cmin6 = C,Eb,G,A and A-7b5 = A,C,Eb,G

Maybe this video will help.


Note in the first example in the video (key of C Min), the 6th scale degree is minor for D-7b5, but major for the Cmin chord. Also notice there are Bbs and B naturals. Also notice the Db approach tone in the bass leading to the C minor chord. Did I miss anything else you think is stands out?

Seems like a lot of chromaticism is used to create harmonic tension. If you listen to this style of music you should eventually learn to anticipate where the chromaticisms should occur.

Unfortunately I don't think this gives a definitive answer regarding whether the 6th scale degree should always be major over the minor i chord, but I think the answer is no.

Here's an example closer to the lesson your describe...except the i chord is Cminor versus Cmin6.

View attachment 3848910
The image is from the following page, which also has other examples you might want to look at.
Two common salsa chord progressions

Good luck.

Thanks. I am making sure I have the cliches in my inner ear and under my fingers, but you and Don are confirming there is no unified theory short cut. I am just going to ignore that written 6 and use my ears

FYI

1 Cm Cm G7 G7
2 Cm Cm Fm G7
3 Cm Bb7 Ab7 G7
4 Cm Cm Bb7 Bb7
5 Cm Eb7 Ab7 G7
6 Cm G7 G7 Cm
7 Cm Eb7 F7 G7
8 Cm Dm7b5 G7 Cm
9 Cm Bb7 Cm [ Dm7b5/G7]
10 Cm Fm G7 Cm
11 Cm Eb7 D7 Db7
12 repeat 1

In the above, the chord root notes come mostly from the Aeolian scale, but the chords are not diatonic (or strictly harmonic minor or anything else).

What's really nice is that Oscar laid out 11 different options to learn. You could probably do a salsa gig using just line 10 (just kidding).

I continue to recommend this book.

 

[SteveCS]

Been reviewing Oscar Stagnaro' excellent Latin Bass Book and some tiny theory questions pop up in the very first exercise. I hear the idiom, I just cant reason out the theory.

The first bassline pattern in thetumbao exercise uses roots/5s over these chords:
Cmi6 / Cmi6/ G7. /G7
Key signature is three flats = C minor.
I presume the mi6 means a natural 6 instead of a b6 and that is confusing to me. Is he signaling melodic minor instead of harmonic minor? ...

...but the chords are not diatonic (or strictly harmonic minor or anything else).
...

Both the major and minor 6th and 7th are diatonic in the minor key. Consequently (compared to 7 in the major key) there are 13 possible harmonised triads in the minor key, and they are all considered diatonic. In terms of scales, all or any of Natural/Aeolian (m6+m7), Melodic (m6/M6+m7/M7), Harmonic (m6+M7) or Dorian (M6+m7) on tonic can all just fit right in without breaking the boundaries of the minor key and without having to label anything 'chromatic'. There is, as @Don Kasper already pointed out, little to be gained in trying to draw any inference of scale by the presence or otherwise of either or both - it's all just minor. YMMV

 

[IamGroot]

Both the major and minor 6th and 7th are diatonic in the minor key. Consequently (compared to 7 in the major key) there are 13 possible harmonised triads in the minor key, and they are all considered diatonic. In terms of scales, all or any of Natural/Aeolian (m6+m7), Melodic (m6/M6+m7/M7), Harmonic (m6+M7) or Dorian (M6+m7) on tonic can all just fit right in without breaking the boundaries of the minor key and without having to label anything 'chromatic'. There is, as @Don Kasper already pointed out, little to be gained in trying to draw any inference of scale by the presence or otherwise of either or both - it's all just minor. YMMV

View attachment 3848921

Agreed as noted in posts below the ones you quoted.

 

[IamGroot]

I jazz I believe we are fairly accustom to hearing Dorian mode over a minor i chord, regardless of what the key signature says. So, I don't find it surprising to see Cmin6 in C minor.

This page explains that the reason has to do with chord voicing and extensions, I.E. we raise the b13 when we are playing chords in jazz.

Open this page and search for the term "Dorian". The explanation is at the 5th of 8 instances of the word. Everything You Don't Know About Minor Harmony in Jazz • Jazzadvice

You will probably want to back up and read a bit before that point.

Here an image from the page that also explains.
View attachment 3848915

I skimmed the remedial lesson. Nothing new. Don answered the question.

 

[SteveCS]

Agreed as noted in posts below the ones you quoted.

well yes and no... When you say

...there is no unified theory short cut...
...
but the chords are not diatonic...

I say "It's all just minor" is the unified theory...

 

[Wasnex]

Both the major and minor 6th and 7th are diatonic in the minor key. Consequently (compared to 7 in the major key) there are 13 possible harmonised triads in the minor key, and they are all considered diatonic. In terms of scales, all or any of Natural/Aeolian (m6+m7), Melodic (m6/M6+m7/M7), Harmonic (m6+M7) or Dorian (M6+m7) on tonic can all just fit right in without breaking the boundaries of the minor key and without having to label anything 'chromatic'. There is, as @Don Kasper already pointed out, little to be gained in trying to draw any inference of scale by the presence or otherwise of either or both - it's all just minor. YMMV

View attachment 3848921

This was profound enough that I copied and saved it to a little folder I keep on music theory . However, I find that in jazz standards, the melodic and harmonic structures do often seem to suggest specific scales that I would consider diatonic over various sections of the composition. Unlike classical music, you typically use the jazz melodic scale so the 6th and 7th are either major or minor...but not both. I assume this holds true whether the 6th and 7th are chord tones or not.

Not that I necessarily think the same rules apply to the montuno, because example suggest they don't.

 

[Groove Master]

Been reviewing Oscar Stagnaro' excellent Latin Bass Book and some tiny theory questions pop up in the very first exercise. I hear the idiom, I just cant reason out the theory.

The first bassline pattern in thetumbao exercise uses roots/5s over these chords:
Cmi6 / Cmi6/ G7. /G7
Key signature is three flats = C minor.
I presume the mi6 means a natural 6 instead of a b6 and that is confusing to me. Is he signaling melodic minor instead of harmonic minor? Any help from the montuno piano players out there?

Maybe more questions, but let's figure this out first.

In a minor key the iimin7(b5) and the V7(b9) are based on the harmonic minor scale of the I. But the color of the Iminor can imply up to 3 different scales.
A minor 6 would imply the melodic minor, a min or minorMaj7 would imply the Mel minor or harmonic minor and the min7 would imply the natural minor scale.

Also if the I minor 7 chord becomes the II of a II-V in major then the dorian mode can be played !

Hope this helps

 

[Don Kasper]

Also if the I minor 7 chord becomes the II of a II-V in major then the dorian mode can be played !

The Dorian mode can be, and is often, used as the Tonic Minor, even if it is not functioning as a ii - V in Major.
For ex. - The jazz classic "Night in Tunisia" chords during the melody in the A section are Eb7 - Dmin6 and the Dorian mode is used (literally) in the bassline on the Dmin6 chord.
Thanks.

 

[BaileyMan]

I can't answer the theory questions so much, but I have spent some time with the book. It really is fantastic! He does so much with so little! Not only did it give me some insight into the style, but it really helped with my reading skills and moving around the neck.

I think I'll spend some time with it today.

 

[Groove Master]

The Dorian mode can be, and is often, used as the Tonic Minor, even if it is not functioning as a ii - V in Major.
For ex. - The jazz classic "Night in Tunisia" chords during the melody in the A section are Eb7 - Dmin6 and the Dorian mode is used (literally) in the bassline on the Dmin6 chord.
Thanks.

I don't know why you say it is dorian when only the major 6th is played in the bass. There are more similitude with the minor melodic scale with the C# in the scale and the b7(Db) of the Eb7. Also in the turnaround we do have the regular ii-v-imin

I heard solos using the melodic minor scale over that Dmin6.

 

[Joebone]

The first time I saw God, I was playing trombone in a salsa band with a 5-horn section. We were playing a large dance, I was sight-reading a new chart - with a slow, smoky groove, the tune was in D-flat minor, and each section of the tune ended with a D-flat minor 6 chord - and my chart had that big, fat B-flat. Minor 6 has remained my favorite chord, forever, displacing my earlier fealty to the Hendrix-soaked Dom7/#9.

 

[Don Kasper]

I don't know why you say it is dorian when only the major 6th is played in the bass. There are more similitude with the minor melodic scale with the C# in the scale and the b7(Db) of the Eb7. Also in the turnaround we do have the regular ii-v-imin

There is no C# in the Dmin chord voicing, so it would be appropriate to use D Dorian as a starting point. (...and C natural, along with the B natural, sounds great in the Tonic Dorian "key".)
Yes, the C# could be part of the melodic/harmonic material. I was simply responding to your point regarding "Dorian" being only related to "Cmaj".
Also - The ii - V - i is in the key of Dmin....not Cmajor.
See also "So What" or "Invitation" for Tonic Dorian.
But, this is just my $0.03 and my approach.
Thanks for your interest.

 

[Groove Master]

There is no C# in the Dmin chord voicing, so it would be appropriate to use D Dorian as a starting point. (...and C natural, along with the B natural, sounds great in the Tonic Dorian "key".)
Yes, the C# could be part of the melodic/harmonic material. I was simply responding to your point regarding "Dorian" being only related to "Cmaj".
Also - The ii - V - i is in the key of Dmin....not Cmajor.
See also "So What" or "Invitation" for Tonic Dorian.
But, this is just my $0.03 and my approach.
Thanks for your interest.

Of course there are exceptions like you have noted but usually what I've indicated above is the guideline 99% of the time ;-)

As for using the dorian over a xmin6 it is not the best choice because of the 1/2 step clash between those two.

I hear that C note in Dmin6 of NIT more like a blue note rather then a scalar tone. That's me

 

[phillipkregg]

Any form of a "Cminxxxxx" chord can be the Tonic home "key", despite what the (ancient and anachronistic) Key Signature of "3 flats" suggests. Cmin (natural 6) 9 is a beautiful Tonic chord. Key Signatures are becoming less and less relevant as music evolves.
Cmin6/9 is very common in the jazz, pop, and funk worlds.
Also - Play this at a piano for i - VI - ii - V in Cminor :
Cmin6/9, A7#9b13, Dmin7b5, G7#9b13. (the VI7 chord of A7#9b13 works beautifully there, damn the Key Signature.) I don't often find it useful to try and ascribe a single scale for a i - VI - ii - V progression. As a matter of fact, I find it limiting, both Harmonically and Melodically.
IMFO, of course.
Just my $0.03.
Thanks.

This is exactly why it is so beneficial to practice jazz. A jazz mentor once warned me to not focus on the key signature - instead learn to quickly recognize chord shapes.

In jazz the key can change every time the chord changes.