Latin Chord Progressions

[Joebone]

Any form of a "Cminxxxxx" chord can be the Tonic home "key", despite what the (ancient and anachronistic) Key Signature of "3 flats" suggests. Cmin (natural 6) 9 is a beautiful Tonic chord. Key Signatures are becoming less and less relevant as music evolves.
Cmin6/9 is very common in the jazz, pop, and funk worlds.
Also - Play this at a piano for i - VI - ii - V in Cminor :
Cmin6/9, A7#9b13, Dmin7b5, G7#9b13. (the VI7 chord of A7#9b13 works beautifully there, damn the Key Signature.) I don't often find it useful to try and ascribe a single scale for a i - VI - ii - V progression. As a matter of fact, I find it limiting, both Harmonically and Melodically.
IMFO, of course.
Just my $0.03.
Thanks.

Great advice. I have little formal training, but am blessed with good ears and instincts. I periodically jam with a guitarist who by nature and training (a neurologist/linguist) is highly analytical, and has been studying jazz guitar for years in a fashion consistent with his analytical bent. So we play standards, take turns soloing, and then talk about what we're doing. He's often asking "which scale over what chord?" I have no frickin' idea - if I think about it after the fact, I might identify a scale, but my true inclination is to start a chorus with one or two pitches and see how far I can get over a set of changes with those pitches, or by taking either of them up or down a half step as taste and intention might dictate - I guess what I'm doing is testing for common pitches across the changes, from which I can try to build melodic lines. I also get a lot of mileage out of diminished and half-diminished scales, and a taste for phrygian/mediterranean colorings, but rarely am conscious of what I'm doing while I'm doing it in the sense of "this scale, this chord..." I've practiced a number of scales, but am thinking about how to build a story - color, texture, tension/release, building out from a simple motif, overall growth and development via rhythmic density, direction, dynamics, intensity, time feel...the scalar stuff is a tool, but you need more than just a hammer, if you want to build a house. BTW, when I say "direction," I'm often feeling my way toward building a line that incorporates ascending "plateau" notes over the course of 8 or 16 bars, building toward a target note or register with which I want to end the line or phrase. Net net - scales are necessary, but please don't think they are the end of the story.
My favorite definition of jazz: "the sound of surprise." You won't get a lot of surprises if you're just looking to correlate each chord or chordal pattern with the most coincident scale(s).

 

[Don Kasper]

Of course there are exceptions like you have noted but usually what I've indicated above is the guideline 99% of the time ;-)

As for using the dorian over a xmin6 it is not the best choice because of the 1/2 step clash between those two.

I hear that C note in Dmin6 of NIT more like a blue note rather then a scalar tone. That's me

Disagree...but isn't that what TB is all about?
Thanks for your interest.

 

[IamGroot]

I haven't done a salsa gig in maybe 12 years, but I am going to bone up my chops with Iscars book and internet playalongs.

Thank you all. My main takeaway is not to overanalyze the salsa chords. See which option (diatonic, mm, hm, other) works best for the music in hand. If you hear a melody, follow it. If you playing solo, sing your own.

Ps, I was hearing b6.

 

[Groove Master]

I haven't done a salsa gig in maybe 12 years, but I am going to bone up my chops with Iscars book and internet playalongs.

Thank you all. My main takeaway is not to overanalyze the salsa chords. See which option (diatonic, mm, hm, other) works best for the music in hand. If you hear a melody, follow it. If you playing solo, sing your own.

Ps, I was hearing b6.

This is a very very good book.

 

[Groove Master]

Disagree...but isn't that what TB is all about?
Thanks for your interest.

Well Don too bad you have to put it that way but thanks for posting Jim Carey, a great Canadian comedian
So I guess you figured out that I was talking about the clash between the major 6 and the dorian b7 right?
Which is why it is best to play the melodic minor instead of the dorian scale over a minor 6 chord.

If you want to play a dorian mode over a minor 6 chord is up to you but not preferred especially when we are giving basic advice in a forum like TB.

Take care.

 

[Don Kasper]

I was talking about the clash between the major 6 and the dorian b7 right?

One man's Clash is another man's Cash. (smiley face here)
(Seriously - I hear/play/teach that a Dorian scale is perfectly OK to play over a Minor 6 chord...and that the 7th scale degree is up for grabs - b7 or Maj7 - both melodically and harmonically. Not looking for a bass-brawl - just letting anyone interested here at TB, that there is another approach.)
Thanks for your time, interest, and civility, Groove....I appreciate all 3.

 

[WeAreAllOne]

To be honest, it's a non-issue. If you want to simplify things, don't worry about it. You aren't going to be playing the 6th, be it a minor or major 6th. Just leave that to the pianista or tresero, that's their job, and yours is to lay down that tumbao with absolute precision and perfect intonation.

 

[evenintheshower]

Love this thread. I'm always amazed at the talent and wisdom on TB!

 

[aprod]

One man's Clash is another man's Cash. (smiley face here)
(Seriously - I hear/play/teach that a Dorian scale is perfectly OK to play over a Minor 6 chord...and that the 7th scale degree is up for grabs - b7 or Maj7 - both melodically and harmonically. Not looking for a bass-brawl - just letting anyone interested here at TB, that there is another approach.)
Thanks for your time, interest, and civility, Groove....I appreciate all 3.

Barry Harris is an expert on this subject, the diminished 6 scale.

 

[Don Kasper]

Barry Harris is an expert on this subject, the diminished 6 scale.

Yeah...I'm not a big fan of his approach, but thanks for the info.

 

[IamGroot]

To be honest, it's a non-issue. If you want to simplify things, don't worry about it. You aren't going to be playing the 6th, be it a minor or major 6th. Just leave that to the pianista or tresero, that's their job, and yours is to lay down that tumbao with absolute precision and perfect intonation.

I see your point. Its mostly root five but there are a few flavor notes here and there; esp the b6 and b9.

8 maj7 b6 5 1 5 octave b9 octave 5 1

 

[WeAreAllOne]

I see your point. Its mostly root five but there are a few flavor notes here and there; esp the b6 and b9.

8 maj7 b6 5 1 5 octave b9 octave 5 1

Well in a minor key, whether you are playing classical music, jazz, or latin styles such as salsa, it is quite common to play a major 6 and sometimes a major 7 over the I chord.

It's good to be familiar with your melodic minor, harmonic minor, natural minor scales, and the dorian mode, and be able to sing all of these with good intonation, away from your instrument.

In salsa/son/cumbia/merengue the way that 6th and 7th scale degree are handled is determined by the piano player, or tres player, sometimes accordian player, basically whoever is playing the chords, and these songs are usually arranged and it is dictated to you.

As the bassist, your role will be to lay down the foundation, it's mostly roots and fifths, sometimes thirds. Occasionally, the bassist will double a montuno figure of something like that which includes a 6th, in which case you play what is written. It's not something you really need to concern yourself with, as it will be dictated to you by the music.

What is of primary importance is time feel, and when playing fretless, intonation.

In written music, minor key signatures are always derived from the natural minor. The 6th scale degree will have an accidental if it is a major 6. The melody and chord chart written by the composer will typically dictate how you handle the 6th and 7th. Some liberties can be taken with the 7th scale degree, interchanging melodic minor and dorian modes, more or less over a minor 6 I chord.

You sound like you are just diving into this music, so if you are worrying about that, it's seems like you may be getting overloaded with theory and getting off track from your role as the bassist in this music. That's the pianist's problem, not yours.

Sometimes theory can become overwhelming and unnecessarily complicate things. That's why I said in my other post to just don't worry about it and focus on the bass lines.

 

[Real Soon]

All sorts of really good theory ground is already covered in here. Great info!

Useless ramblings follow:

There's a tune in the jazz canon whose name completely escapes me, but its intro starts with a piano doing 1, 3-5 6, 5-3 1 a few times, numbers being scale degrees. Quarter, eighth eighth quarter, eighth eighth quarter, etc. It's in Dorian so has that distinctive flavor, and so beautifully captures a sense of minor tonality while punching your face with the alternate mode. IIRC, the chart's progression has things like half-diminished ii chords, so borrows from natural minor or whatever else is convenient to sound good.

In jazz, and absolutely no less latin jazz than any other style, it really is the case that the "rules" are nothing more than how the tune starts and maybe a guideline for making notation simpler, but mixing modes and briefly modulating in the middle of a chorus are par for the course. In some more traditional salsa etc, things might be more diatonic, but you'll still get liberal modulating from minor to major and back, and borrowing minor chords in major key, etc.

 

[WeAreAllOne]

All sorts of really good theory ground is already covered in here. Great info!

Useless ramblings follow:

There's a tune in the jazz canon whose name completely escapes me, but its intro starts with a piano doing 1, 3-5 6, 5-3 1 a few times, numbers being scale degrees. Quarter, eighth eighth quarter, eighth eighth quarter, etc. It's in Dorian so has that distinctive flavor, and so beautifully captures a sense of minor tonality while punching your face with the alternate mode. IIRC, the chart's progression has things like half-diminished ii chords, so borrows from natural minor or whatever else is convenient to sound good.

In jazz, and absolutely no less latin jazz than any other style, it really is the case that the "rules" are nothing more than how the tune starts and maybe a guideline for making notation simpler, but mixing modes and briefly modulating in the middle of a chorus are par for the course. In some more traditional salsa etc, things might be more diatonic, but you'll still get liberal modulating from minor to major and back, and borrowing minor chords in major key, etc.

Perhaps Autumn Leaves intro as performed by Cannonball Adderly on Somethin' Else?
Also Night In Tunesia kind of does that.

Well not exactly those note values, but close. That's what came to mind for me.

 

[Real Soon]

Perhaps Autumn Leaves intro as performed by Cannonball Adderly on Somethin' Else?
Also Night In Tunesia kind of does that.

Well not exactly those note values, but close. That's what came to mind for me.

By Julian, it's Autumn Leaves by Cannonball! Thank you! I fudged the notes by adding an extra eighth; it's actually: quarter | eighth eighth | quarter | eighth eighth-rest | ..a couple times. It's using that Dorian scale, and swung less in the intro than the rest of the tune. I've heard combos cover it before in a Latin style and completely love it as it adapts so well.

Clearly, a long time ago and in dark, whiskey-filled clubs...but yes

 

[5StringBlues]

 

[IamGroot]

Well in a minor key, whether you are playing classical music, jazz, or latin styles such as salsa, it is quite common to play a major 6 and sometimes a major 7 over the I chord.

It's good to be familiar with your melodic minor, harmonic minor, natural minor scales, and the dorian mode, and be able to sing all of these with good intonation, away from your instrument.

In salsa/son/cumbia/merengue the way that 6th and 7th scale degree are handled is determined by the piano player, or tres player, sometimes accordian player, basically whoever is playing the chords, and these songs are usually arranged and it is dictated to you.

As the bassist, your role will be to lay down the foundation, it's mostly roots and fifths, sometimes thirds. Occasionally, the bassist will double a montuno figure of something like that which includes a 6th, in which case you play what is written. It's not something you really need to concern yourself with, as it will be dictated to you by the music.

What is of primary importance is time feel, and when playing fretless, intonation.

In written music, minor key signatures are always derived from the natural minor. The 6th scale degree will have an accidental if it is a major 6. The melody and chord chart written by the composer will typically dictate how you handle the 6th and 7th. Some liberties can be taken with the 7th scale degree, interchanging melodic minor and dorian modes, more or less over a minor 6 I chord.

You sound like you are just diving into this music, so if you are worrying about that, it's seems like you may be getting overloaded with theory and getting off track from your role as the bassist in this music. That's the pianist's problem, not yours.

Sometimes theory can become overwhelming and unnecessarily complicate things. That's why I said in my other post to just don't worry about it and focus on the bass lines.

Yeah, I guess I am a newbie. I have 60 years of music, 50 years of paying gigs, and played Oscar's books down about 15 years ago. I have done lots of Latin jazz, but no real salsa, since those gigs are scarce and there are others in line. I own a few salsa bass books and Mauleon's montuno book.

You made some good points, but your approach sounds a little rigid.

 

[WeAreAllOne]

Yeah, I guess I am a newbie. I have 60 years of music, 50 years of paying gigs, and played Oscar's books down about 15 years ago. I have done lots of Latin jazz, but no real salsa, since those gigs are scarce and there are others in line. I own a few salsa bass books and Mauleon's montuno book.

You made some good points, but your approach sounds a little rigid.

I'm sorry, I wound't have though somebody learning how to play simple tumbao lines from a book and asking these fundamental questions which suggested lack of understanding of how minor I chords are handled in real music would have so much experience. Maybe I didn't read your questions closely enough. I certainly didn't mean any offense.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

ii - V in Cminor

Using Three Different Scales to Improvise Over Minor Key ii-V-i’s | Guitar World

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I presume the mi6 means a natural 6 instead of a b6 and that is confusing to me.

The Music Sound chord as Tonic&f=false

Jazz Theory chord as Tonic&f=false

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Complete Jazz Keyboard Method: Mastering Jazz Keyboard chord as Tonic&f=false

Intermediate Jazz Keyboard chord as Tonic&f=false