"Lawsuit" and "pre-lawsuit" instruments do not exist

[KenSmithFan]

Y'all just woke up wanting to argue over something...

That’s not true.

 

[Danny O Danny]

So. Please stop using those terms. They are wrong.

Yeah, that ain't gonna happen. The term "lawsuit era" is too embedded now. Like a lot of cultural references, the term is built upon a tiny kernel of truth and a large overlay of embellishments. Might as well tell people to stop celebrating Christmas because Jesus likely wasn't born in December.

 

[tpaul]

Cease and desist is usually what I hear from my family when I start singing.

 

[Michedelic]

Y'all just woke up wanting to argue over something...

No I didn’t!!!

 

[yodedude2]

CF Martin also sent a cease and desist letter to Takamine over their copying of the CF Martin logo on their acoustic guitars. Takamine complied and no lawsuit was filed, but the early Takamine guitars are still referred to as “lawsuit” guitars.

Edit: I guess it’s easier to say “lawsuit” guitar rather than “cease and desist” guitar.

i'm gonna start calling my early takamine 12-string a 'cease and desist' guitar because that is so much more fun

 

[EdwardofHuncote]

On my workbench right now is a Japanese-made Alvarez copy of a Gibson Dove. Open-book headstock, bird on the pickguard and all... they even worked a fake-a-roo Tune-O-Matic bridge top into the copied "mustache" bridge.

I sure hope I don't get sued for fixin' it... the bill won't cover a lawyer.

 

[sheesh]

No I didn’t!!!
View attachment 7429448

Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

 

[TeaTime]

Not the same thing (early 2000's), but for a fun rabbit hole check out the various combinations of Ed Roman vs Moserite USA vs Moserite Japan vs Mosley. Yeah, Ed Roman, the usual craziness that inevitably follows.

 

[Hurricane Jimmie]

So Anyway, I might have missed it in the comments, but I think the best one is Fender VS Fender.
I read where Fender Corporation sent G&L and C&D letter about their headstock design. As a result, there's the 'wing' or maybe it's a 'finger' on the G&L headstock after a certain date.

BTW- I think this is a great way to wake up!

 

[ezstep]

Words such as "rare" or "unique" or "antique" or "lawsuit" are used far too often in the marketplace.

Of course, my collection of rare, unique, and antique basses are correctly named. No lawsuit basses, though.

 

[tpaul]

So Anyway, I might have missed it in the comments, but I think the best one is Fender VS Fender.
I read where Fender Corporation sent G&L and C&D letter about their headstock design. As a result, there's the 'wing' or maybe it's a 'finger' on the G&L headstock after a certain date.

BTW- I think this is a great way to wake up!

The G&L headstock looks like a bottle opener to me. And that little point looks like it could snap off very easily if impacted. I wish they had come up with a different solution.

 

[Pdaddy1978]

Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

But that dosent mean just saying "no it isnt".

Yes it is.

NO IT ISN'T!!

 

[DanAdams]

If you can think of a better term, and then you can convince us that the new term describes the era better...
Then I guess I will consider it.

good Luck with that.

 

[Root 5]

Wrong, in Gibson's case. And easily researched... try ChatGPT rather than believing a YT "expert".

Fender: mostly​

• In the late ’60s–’70s, Japanese makers (FujiGen, Tokai, Greco, Fernandes, etc.) made very accurate Strat/Tele/Jazz Bass copies.
• Fender’s original body shapes weren’t strongly protected at the time, and many design elements had slipped into the public domain.
• Instead of mass lawsuits, Fender took a business solution:
  • Partnered with FujiGen in Japan
  • Launched Fender Japan in 1982
  • Licensed the designs and trademarks
• Ironically, those early MIJ Fenders are now considered excellent and helped revive Fender’s quality reputation during the CBS-era slump.

Bottom line: Fender largely absorbed the copy market rather than fighting it in court.

---

Gibson:​

Gibson took a much more aggressive legal stance.

1977:​

• Gibson’s parent company (Norlin) sued Ibanez in U.S. federal court.
• The issue wasn’t the Les Paul body—it was the “open-book” headstock shape, which was protected.
• The case settled out of court in 1978, but it scared manufacturers enough to:
  • Redesign headstocks
  • Move away from exact copies

This moment is often called the end of the “lawsuit guitar era.”

---

Aftermath & legacy​

• Japanese brands shifted from 1:1 copies → original designs
• Companies like Ibanez, Yamaha, ESP, Tokai went on to become major innovators
• Today, many lawsuit-era Japanese guitars are:
  • Highly collectible
  • Valued for build quality that sometimes rivaled or beat U.S. guitars of the time

---

One more twist: Gibson kept litigating​

• Gibson later tried similar arguments against:
  • PRS (Singlecut) → lost
  • Dean / Luna / Heritage → mixed results, many claims weakened
• Courts increasingly ruled that single-cut body shapes are functional and generic, not protectable.

ChatGPT get many things wrong and state their errors with confidence.

It told me Les Pauls have 250k pots and strats 500k! Among other things.

 

[Guitalia]

They have my address if they want to come and get them.

Just thought you and others would want to know what the counterfeiting laws actually say for Chinese-copy guitars.

 

[micguy]

Fender didn’t protect their body shapes, bit they did protect their headstock shapes.

You can tell a “lawsuit” era copy by it’s headstock shape - the threat of litigation means that instruments started to be made with different headstock shapes.

 

[Root 5]

Gibson has a registered U.S. trademark for the LP body shape (and others) and does send cease and desist notices to retailers that sell replicas and replica kits.

These are essentially a threat to sue and many retailers won’t sell these products once they receive notice.

Godin changed the design of their Summit (LP shaped) electric guitar because of Gibson’s threats.

 

[BassAgent]

Gibson has a registered U.S. trademark for the LP body shape (and others) and does send cease and desist notices to retailers that sell replicas and replica kits.

These are essentially a threat to sue and many retailers won’t sell these products once they receive notice.

I think, of all the TB threads I’ve perused over the years, this one is the worst

lol, threads.....just cause you can doesn't mean you should...

Y'all just woke up wanting to argue over something...

Cat --> pigeons

 

[CochinoBass]

I'm going to send TalkBass a C&D letter over this thread so it will be "pre lawsuit".

 

[Thumpin6string]

What I find humorous is that the only times I see the use of "lawsuit" used in a description, is on Ric copies, not Fender or Gibson. Rickenbacker DID file and evidently won, because they stop sales of the Ric copies on almost every selling platform. When I tried to sell me Ibanez 4001 copy on Ebay, it was removed for violating Rickenbacker's copy right. Rather than suing, Fender and Gibson bought the factories making the copies and rebranded the fakes as Squire and Epiphone. I read that many years ago. Not sure if it is true or not.