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Learning scales

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by jostego, Jan 11, 2013.


  1. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    Dying art comment is playing and seeing things around a chord tones. I dont care if u are from Latin America, europe or Africa. Chord tones are not just pop music. U can play any style of music by seeing around the chords. The magic of this approach is that the harder the music, the easier it is to approach it around seeing chord tones.
     
  2. fmoore200

    fmoore200

    Mar 22, 2011
    NYC
    I've been following this thread since the beginning (thanks to the new app) and even responded to you about scalar use in modal jazz, but you never responded.

    I know some guys get rough around here, but that is the way of the internet I guess lol.

    You kept on saying that guys in the 40's and 50's played with more emphasis on chord tones. That peaked my interest and I couldn't tell why. Then it hit me! I have a book by Mark Levine called "The Jazz Piano Book"where he talks about just that. I'll paraphrase:

    He talks about early jazz musicians looking at a lead sheet as a series of chords, and the only notes available were the notes that make up the chord. Any other notes were "wrong".

    Levine later goes on to say that when be bop came along soloists started to look at each chord (and groups of chords) within a tune and see what notes were available to them. They started to use scales as a pool of available notes they can draw upon to create the desired effect. Later Miles Davis expanded upon the scalar approach when he started writing tunes that would have one chord played over several bars.

    Levine even wrote an exercise called 'the never ending scale exercise" where you analyze a tune's chord structure to determine what scales can be played and you connect them from whatever Niue you last played.

    I guess my point is that you are right about chords being used as three basis of improvisation by older generations, but fail to realize that the use of scales as an improvisational tool came about as an evolution in music.
     
  3. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    Fergie, my dying art comment is approaching playing from chord tone arpeggios. I don't care what continent u are on. It's not only my opinion it's the opinion of many famous old musicians such as Kaye, etc.
     
  4. Febs

    Febs Supporting Member

    May 7, 2007
    Philadelphia, PA
    Wrong. You got jumped for claiming that "scales have no place in the real world":

    (The emphasis is mine.)

    Very few people here have any serious quarrel with using chord tones as an approach to playing.
     
  5. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    Fmoore, try and understand, knowing your chord tone arpeggios helps make complicated music easy. Jazz is one of the most complicated forms of music and the old cats without college degrees and music theory classes play this with ease. Why? Because they know their chord tone arpeggios and the chromatic notes around them.
     
  6. Fergie Fulton

    Fergie Fulton

    Nov 22, 2008
    Braintree
    Retrovibe Artist rota
    And that is becoming your problem Chad, you don't care where we come from. Look at the top right of the post, you will see a town and country of origin for those that have taking the time to fill it in.....you are talking to the world from your own perspective.

    You never been bothered to answer the simple question I asked you about arpeggios, so you are being seen to pick the points that support your philosophy's, the more you duck out of questions.

    You may even believe you are in some sort of big controversy, but look at the facts. Look at the numbers that have viewed the thread, look at those that have replied, look at those that are repeat replies, then compare that to the number of TB members. You will work out very fast that very few are against you, because most of TB has no opinions on the matter, or know where this thread is going and how it will end.

    Get things in perspective and use a language and meaning that is relevant, because English is not the first language of everyone on TB, so you may be taken as literal.
    But if you do not care about such matters, you will end up using all your energies fighting a corner, rather than getting your points over, you will in fact be swamped out of the threads by the weight of dealing with detractors or correcting ideas mis-understood.:)

    Think about where you are and who is reading what you write....they are not all American, and they are certainly not all local to you in Lebanon, PA:)
     
  7. jallenbass

    jallenbass Supporting Member Commercial User

    May 17, 2005
    Bend, Oregon
    So, have we answered the OP's initial question?
     
  8. fmoore200

    fmoore200

    Mar 22, 2011
    NYC
    But you didn't reply to what I wrote, just repeated what you have been saying all along.. That doesn't really move the conversation anywhere :meh:
     
  9. fmoore200

    fmoore200

    Mar 22, 2011
    NYC
    +1

    :bag: :ninja:
     
  10. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    Fergie it's hard to see your question when u type a long winded saga of a ranting reply. So just type me your question because honestly I don't know what u asked me.
    Again, why do I have to look at your country, Kaye, Metheny, as well as many greats are making the observation. I've encountered with the students I meet. So all of musicians can't be wrong.
     
  11. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    Febs, you r a day late and a dollar short. I already stated that and have apologized for that opening comment. Truthfully the comment was made in a light sarcastic light but after I posted it, I realized that because this is social media, that u can't hear the reflections and tone of my voice.
    Let me help u out. I'm only interested in further helping people learn chord tone arpeggios. I will start a thread of my own to discuss it further. I'm not interested in fighting and never was. I only wanted to discuss a particular way the jazz greats approach playing. So I bid u farewell. For those that are interested, look for a thread in the near future on chord tone arpeggios.
     
  12. lfmn16

    lfmn16 Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2011
    charles town, wv
    Too much trouble to read your run-on streams of consciousness, too little benefit. A little tip for you - quit while you are behind. You don't seem to be able to express yourself in terms that others either understand or agree with. Either you are wrong, or everyone else is.

    [/CLASS]
     
  13. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    Ifmn, u are also a day late and a dollar short. I've already stated in the last post that I'm done on this thread and will start one of my own.
     
  14. Fergie Fulton

    Fergie Fulton

    Nov 22, 2008
    Braintree
    Retrovibe Artist rota
    Chad it's post 186, posted as a stand alone question, so you could see the point I make. I will not re-post it so you can see it in context of the posts around it, just back track a page and follow the post numbers.....it is not a trick or a trap, but a question to which your answer will make you see a different reason for why Arpeggios are so.

    As for saying I am ranting, no.....I am talking and I am giving you the courtesy and respect that everyone gets, please return that courtesy.:)

    As for posts being long, they have to be because I am making sure I am not mis-understood.....because this is the world-wide web.;)
     
  15. Fergie Fulton

    Fergie Fulton

    Nov 22, 2008
    Braintree
    Retrovibe Artist rota
    You don't, but then please start you posts, replies or observations with
    " in America today....." So that the rest of the world does not get includes in the problems you are trying to correct. Be more specific as to what your target area is.

    Fact is you have not visited other countries, so you have no experience of music education there, or any of the players standards, or the standard required to even play their music.....but you state to the world that "there are players doing this or doing that, music is a dying art, real professionals.." but what you mean is in America not the world at large.:)
     
  16. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    I will check it out and get back to u. As far as respect....I haven't received any of that LOL.
    IT'S okay that I haven't, all I ask is everyone be a little nicer. I know that's too difficult for many so I will start my own thread. I will get back to u with your question.
     
  17. lfmn16

    lfmn16 Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2011
    charles town, wv
    Yet you continue to engage :rollno:

    We can only hope that you stick to your word this time. :D
     
  18. Fergie Fulton

    Fergie Fulton

    Nov 22, 2008
    Braintree
    Retrovibe Artist rota
    Playing nice returns nice.;)

    We reap what we sow.:bawl:
     
  19. chadgrimes

    chadgrimes

    Jan 11, 2013
    IFMN I will keep my word, but I did tell Fergie I would answer his question. Fergie, if the piano player is asked to play arpeggios with his left hand instead of a block chord, then the pianist would do arpeggios. I'm trying to figure out why u asked the question, and through the entire long rant replies that everyone has, I'm guessing that u want to know how that works with chord tone arpeggios verses arpeggios of other notes?
    U can make anything sound like what we know as arpeggio sound. U can do it with a chord and u can even take a series of non chord tones or scale degrees sound like arpeggios. U will probably throw the music dictionary term back saying that arpeggios are chord tones, but that is actually a generalization. The word chord is used loosely. The definition is based off basic harmony. In reality the term arpeggios have come to mean just a succession of notes that sound like an arpeggio or chord tone arpeggios.
     
  20. One Drop

    One Drop

    Oct 10, 2004
    Swiss Alps
    You aren't listening. He is saying the practice you are recommending is commonplace in those styles of music.

    Take a deep breath and LISTEN. And relax, I'm not jumping anyone.
     

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