Learning the Fretboard

[Member8675309]

Would you agree that thinking in shapes and patterns is a useful skill once you've learned every note on the fretboard, particularly for on-the-fly transposing? It may just be that I have 50 years of memorization behind me, but I think it would be hard not to rely on fingering patterns once you understand what notes are in a chord and where each of those notes is located. ...maybe that should be an advanced topic?

I knew shapes before I knew notes. When you are self taught and learn to play by ear via trial and error, it just comes with the territory. Basically, I operated on the 'does it sound good?' method. If it does to you, and nobody else complains, then you're golden.

 

[TomB]

I knew shapes before I knew notes. When you are self taught and learn to play by ear via trial and error, it just comes with the territory. Basically, I operated on the 'does it sound good?' method. If it does to you, and nobody else complains, then you're golden.

I agree. I was only responding to the notion I thought I heard that learning shapes and patterns was something to be avoided. I don't think it's avoidable!

 

[Member8675309]

I agree. I was only responding to the notion I thought I heard that learning shapes and patterns was something to be avoided. I don't think it's avoidable!

Humans are excellent at recognizing patterns. It's just part of our innate abilities. I believe that any tactic is a good tactic, and I can in no way see how recognizing that there is a pattern is a bad thing.

Edit: Especially if you're a blues player.

 

[Tbsx]

My secret to unlocking the fretboard was learning how to sight-read. It was slow and painful at first because you need to make all those hand-eye connections at once, but boy does it make a difference. Since notation does not indicate where to play the note on the neck, the choice falls upon you - and some lines play vastly different depending on your position, so it forces you to know the alternatives. After a month or so, you'll know the neck like the back of your hand.

Learning the major scales is a natural extension of that since you'll also need to know about key signatures, and what notes are flattened or sharpened.

I'll second that for ,3 reasons

1. You learn to read sheet music
2. You learn the notes on your finger board
3. You identify the sound with the notes you're playing (ear training)

Initially, the goal isn't to play as fast as you
Read, but to learn those 3 things.

 

[Wfrance3]

Honestly what helped me most was learning that (for example) f is one string higher than c on the same fret.

Now go done to c on the 8th fret of e string. F is one string higher up on the same fret there too. - and g is one string lower if you play a 5...

Anyway, you learn little blocks of keyboard that are handy for what you are playing.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Let's assume for a moment that you are a novice player. Things like "Circle of Fourths" and Cm7b5 and modes are some distance down the road for you. It may be a short road but it sure ain't today. The hardest lesson to learn, and one of the most valuable, is patience; slow down! If you can't play it slowly I guarantee you can't play it fast.

Your question about saying the note names aloud when playing scales and arpeggios is an important one and there are several reasons for calling out the note names in your normal speaking voice. One is that it quickly builds your confidence in identifying the notes you're playing. It does this by helping the brain connect the sound (the pitch) with the hand positions and the written notation. That seems simple but it's quite a lot of stuff for the brain to organize. It also helps cement the idea of sharps and flats when playing scales other than C Major.

We often talk about "muscle memory" here. That's the ability to play something without consciously thinking about it. You get there by repeating actions in an orderly way. Learning the fretboard works a lot like that. Take your time and be consistent about it and before long you'll be skilled enough that vocalizing the names becomes unnecessary.

 

[Mushroo]

How long would you suggest practicing that daily?

I recommend practicing scales 5-10 minutes per day at first. There are only 12 major scales, so if you practice one per day, you can learn them all in less than two weeks! A good way to organize is according to the circle of 4ths/5ths. Day 1, play C major over the entire range of the instrument (not just C to C!), day 2 play F major, day 3 play Bb, etc.

 

[Nashrakh]

Initially, the goal isn't to play as fast as you
Read, but to learn those 3 things.

I'll add to that another (bonus) thing: You'll learn how to play without looking at the fretboard, with the exception of position shifts maybe. So, at the end you'll know your notes - and your fingers automatically fly to them without any conscious effort on your part. Pretty rad.

Breaking the habit of staring at your neck was really tough for me (used to do that for my entire time playing), but I'm beginning to see the upsides to that.

If I were to start over my bass playing, learning how to (sight-)read would be the first thing I'd do. Took me long enough!

 

[TheIndieKid]

Thanks for all the opinions guys! Is there any way we can all come to a general consensus on a definitive idea for those that view this thread? For example, what are the most musical scales/arpeggios to use a Fretboard exercise? Where should you learn them on the neck (circle of fourths, or all over the neck, for example)?

 

[fearceol]

Thanks for all the opinions guys! Is there any way we can all come to a general consensus on a definitive idea for those that view this thread? For example, what are the most musical scales/arpeggios to use a Fretboard exercise? Where should you learn them on the neck (circle of fourths, or all over the neck, for example)?

Everyone will have different methods that work for them, so a general consensus might not be possible. IMO this (see link) is the most beneficial way to practice scales.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Would you agree that thinking in shapes and patterns is a useful skill once you've learned every note on the fretboard, particularly for on-the-fly transposing?

IMO what is important is once you've heard or seen a chord (identified the chord) your fingers know what to do with that information. See a Cma7 chord and your fingers are already going to the C note, now what you follow that up with - 3-5-7 or just the 5 on the 3rd beat - depends on the song and the style of music the song is in. My point; once you identify something your fingers do not have to think about it, they just go there and do what is necessary.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Thanks for all the opinions guys! Is there any way we can all come to a general consensus on a definitive idea for those that view this thread? For example, what are the most musical scales/arpeggios to use a Fretboard exercise? Where should you learn them on the neck (circle of fourths, or all over the neck, for example)?

Consensus? Unlikely. We all have experiences that differ and we all learn differently and, having learned, we all view the musical world differently.

 

[Lobster11]

I agree. I was only responding to the notion I thought I heard that learning shapes and patterns was something to be avoided. I don't think it's avoidable!

Right. I think the point is that you shouldn't learn only shapes; you should also learn the notes. I suspect this stems from the fact that a lot of folks only learn the notes on the E string so they know where to start, and then rely entirely on shapes to play from there.

 

[TomB]

Right. I think the point is that you shouldn't learn only shapes; you should also learn the notes. I suspect this stems from the fact that a lot of folks only learn the notes on the E string so they know where to start, and then rely entirely on shapes to play from there.

Posts above discussed learning shapes AFTER learning the whole fret board - given that the shapes come from understanding the chord structure/voicing and the right bass notes to play under it. Shapes & patterns alone without note/chord knowledge would be a pretty shaky approach - especially if limited to an E-string root. Do you really think a lot of folks play bass that way? That would be scary on stage - you'd be basically clueless if anything varied from the script.

 

[Member8675309]

Posts above discussed learning shapes AFTER learning the whole fret board - given that the shapes come from understanding the chord structure/voicing and the right bass notes to play under it. Shapes & patterns alone without note/chord knowledge would be a pretty shaky approach - especially if limited to an E-string root. Do you really think a lot of folks play bass that way? That would be scary on stage - you'd be basically clueless if anything varied from the script.

I think it would be more appropriate to say that I RECOGNIZED shapes rather than depended on them. I learned to play in an old school, self-taught fashion....by playing the same songs over, and over, and over, rewinding the cassette or cd over parts. I swear I practiced 6-7 hours a day using that method. After one year, however, I knew a good amount of the notes by being subjected to them, there aren't that many, but I recognized that most songs follow a pattern, and, if you learn that pattern, respectively to each song, then you've learned the song in its basic form. From there, improv was/could be heavy, always knowing alternates to play through shear trial and error, being subjected to the material.

At this point, 20 years later, no longer 13 years old, I learned shapes/scales/notes/etc., and I am glad I do. So, do you think a bassist would be scary on stage only knowing patterns? Depends on the individual, depends on how you approach music, depends on you being a cookie cutter or an artist. Too many variables.

 

[TomB]

I think it would be more appropriate to say that I RECOGNIZED shapes rather than depended on them. I learned to play in an old school, self-taught fashion....by playing the same songs over, and over, and over, rewinding the cassette or cd over parts. I swear I practiced 6-7 hours a day using that method. After one year, however, I knew a good amount of the notes by being subjected to them, there aren't that many, but I recognized that most songs follow a pattern, and, if you learn that pattern, respectively to each song, then you've learned the song in its basic form. From there, improv was/could be heavy, always knowing alternates to play through shear trial and error, being subjected to the material.

At this point, 20 years later, no longer 13 years old, I learned shapes/scales/notes/etc., and I am glad I do. So, do you think a bassist would be scary on stage only knowing patterns? Depends on the individual, depends on how you approach music, depends on you being a cookie cutter or an artist. Too many variables.

Actually, I think many of us learned to play the way you described. I did largely as well, at least at first until it wasn't sufficient to cut the gig - which seems like the point OP has reached as well. I didn't mean that such a bassist would necessarily be scary to anyone else on stage, only that it would be scary to be that bassist in a situation where more knowledge was needed to feel confident. I speak from experience - sounds like you do as well .

 

[Member8675309]

Only a fool would say that a lack of knowledge is a benefit. Ignorance may be bliss, but on stage, it can be a pain in the a**.

If, w/o knowledge, a bandlead decides they're feeling G# tonight rather than C#, pattern and note recognition will benefit you. Absolutely no knowledge of what they're talking about will be your worst nightmare.

You miss that first note, then the next, your confidence may plummet. I saw this poor girl at a bar in Nashville suffer through a gig once. It was painful.

But, if a band gets together, hypothetically, and practices the same original songs religiously, then I believe, on stage, they can kill it, even w/o knowledge of what notes they're playing. They simply each recognize the basic pattern that sounds right, and, through shear dedication can pull off improvs that can be incredible. I've seen it in my high school students too much.

I think about it like this. They are trying to turn teaching into a science, when it truly is an art. The same goes for music. People struggle to turn it into a science when it is an art. Sound came before the knowledge of the note. Sometimes I wish I could forget my knowledge and play with the reckless abandon these young adults play with. Sure, they'd drown in a live setting, but what they do together can sound great. I mean, all those great bands from the 60s/70s/80s/90s weren't much older than 20, if that. I don't know, maybe I'm an idiot that needs to learn more scales.

 

[bluesfordan]

like the old joke:

Week 1- learn the notes on the E string
Week 2 - learn the notes on the A string
Week 3 - get home at 4:00 AM after your three set gig

 

[TomB]

U

like the old joke:

Week 1- learn the notes on the E string
Week 2 - learn the notes on the A string
Week 3 - get home at 4:00 AM after your three set gig

That paid $20

 

[Dogbertday]

Would you agree that thinking in shapes and patterns is a useful skill once you've learned every note on the fretboard, particularly for on-the-fly transposing? It may just be that I have 50 years of memorization behind me, but I think it would be hard not to rely on fingering patterns once you understand what notes are in a chord and where each of those notes is located. ...maybe that should be an advanced topic?

Yeah i agree that patterns happen no matter what. I find my playing gets better the more i strive to minimize pattern based playing (both scale shapes and just getting away from the same old licks). But also i need to be able to look at someone and say "thats a a Bb not. B natural in the chorus and heve them know what im saying.

I knew shapes before I knew notes. When you are self taught and learn to play by ear via trial and error, it just comes with the territory. Basically, I operated on the 'does it sound good?' method. If it does to you, and nobody else complains, then you're golden.

Of course if it sounds good it is good. The pitfall is when you are trying to communicate efficiently, especially with nom huitar/bass players.