I don't disagree with any of your post except this, and yet nowhere in your post do you really try to present any valid reason for teaching a beginner to wrap his thumb around the neck, which was the initial argument.
RSI is an umbrella term for any sort of repetitive strain injury. This includes strains that occur in gamers, golfers, ravers, and many other injuries that occur from repetitive overuse that involve movement in more than one plane. It all boils down to one thing - if you make any repetitive motion over and over and over again, it is gunna hurt. That includes rocking your wrist back and forth continually so you can get access to the E and G strings like the Cream bass player in your first video.
Economy of motion doesn't mean you can't move fluidly and naturally. It just means you don't do things you have no good reason for doing. I don't buy your argument about every individual being different. The Cream bass player could certainly benefit from placing his thumb on the back of the neck. Most all of us have fairly standardized muscular and skeletal systems which don't require complete reinvention of technique.
Honestly, I think there are much worse things you can do for your technique, such as placing your thumb on the back of the neck and then SQUEEZING with your thumb. At least with the thumb wrapped around, you don't have to worry about squeezing. But, this still doesn't mean there is any reason what-so-ever to teach it as an acceptable technique to a beginner.
Please note this post went on a bit as it is a hard subject to skirt by without some explanation.
I don't disagree with any of your post except this, and yet nowhere in your post do you really try to present any valid reason for teaching a beginner to wrap his thumb around the neck, which was the initial argument.
Give anybody a bass guitar and the first ay they hold it is with the thumb over the top, it is a natural way to hold. But we need more than a hold we need access. The muscle groups that will give us the dexterity we need in the fingers are in the forearms. The muscle groups that will give us the stamina to carry out this dexterity are in the forearms.
The muscle groups that give us the strength to carry out these movements are in the forearms. So if you did not know already your fingers are the results of movement not the cause.
This is like a glass shafted hammer with a steel head. The glass is strong enough to do certain tasks, but if you force it, or use it wrong it is the shaft that will give way before the head. The shaft has to be equal to the head of the hammer.
So the reason for letting a thumb come over the top and letting the pads do the work is because it is a natual and reletively safe position to assume. After a few months of carefull instruction these position should now be refined to suit the students capabilities and needs. After a year or so we can consider the forearms now strong enough to facilitate other aspects, some of which you talk of. That has taken a year to get to this stage, as i said before i would advise a begineer to not go below the 7th fret, but after many months of practice and training i would assume there arms and hands fit enough to handle such extremes. What we are encouraging is the gradual build up of strength and technique together, each supporting the other.
You talk of squeezing the neck, well we agree there and at no point is that ever mentioned. Having your thumb in any position does not mean it has to squeeze.
Everything your hands do comes from you brains understanding of the situation, if you want to squeeze you will. That's why i said in the previous post you don't understand technique. Technique is not an in-voluntary response, you make the desision to do it, you make a concious decision to play the way you do. Its just whether you have understood what is being asked of you and its conciquences to you?
You talk of repeditive motion hurting, so to understand what muscle controled motion is, you have to have a slight understanding of what and why muscles do what they do.
The easiest way to do this is to remove what it is you are talking about from the argument, in this case a bass guitar.
So now all movement is based on the body and the muscles ability. I am right handed so if i sit at a table and strum my left hand fingers on the table, and the fore, middle and ring finger of the left hand to make the sound of horses galloping, soldiers marching, drum rhythms etc.... what is happening?
That is a physical activity as far as my body is concerned, take the passion of music and instrument out and that is a physical activity, so the laws of anatomy apply. The blood must flow to give the muscles oxygen, the blood need to be oxygenated, the muscle needs nerve stimulus, the joints must be supple, the ligaments need to be healthy, all this needs energy from water and diet, vitamins and minerals must be correct in the right balance, waste product like lactic acid , carbon dioxide, sweat etc must be carried away, its goes on and on..
Just because we have a bass in our hands all these things don't suddenly "NOT APPLY"
Blinking, heart beat, breathing, etc are repeditive motion that we need to make our bodies work better for us, so not all repeditive motion produces injury.
As for the gamers golfers etc, usually when they stop the first thing they do, in the gamers situation, is use more movement to counter the lack of movement they have been experiening, they will shake their hands extend their wrists, and fingers, side bends of the wrist, stretches, shoulder shrugs etc, all manner of things to counter the one plane motion they have been using.
One plain motion would be for players the fingers short backward and forward motion. They never get to experience the full closure or extention of the fingers, the side ways movement, or the tension, rexlax movement that muscles desire, it is always tension till they stop playing.
Most all of us have fairly standardized muscular and skeletal systems which don't require complete reinvention of technique.
It is the layout that is the same, but the functions capabilities that are totaly different as are the bodies they use. I am Scottish and red headed so let me work in the sun for a few hours with say a native of Trinidad and see who come off worst, after all we are pretty standard as human beings.
This reinvention of technique, who invented it in the first place and what was the reasoning behind it?
Lets talk injuries for a moment. Your right that is an umberella so lets sort a few out for players to seach on;
Intersection syndrome, extensor carpi ulnaris tendinitis, trigger finger, scapholunate ligament sprain, triangular fibrocartilage complex injury, gymnast's wrist of the radius, Kienböck's disease of the lunate, and scaphoid or hamate fractures, the list goes on. De Quervain's tenosynovitis and carpal tunnel syndrome (CTS), two of the most common hand/ wrist overuse conditions seen in hand problems. In CTS it is the palm and wrist area that is the problem not the fingers. Can you see the pattern?
If the fingers are at fault the problem is seen in the fingers as a rule most others are related or refered, its that glass shafted hammer again.
In de Quervains and CTS ( de Quervains tenosynovitis is associated with CTS and trigger finger problems) it is never the fingers that are the problems, but they suffer. In de Quevains it is the thumb that is the culprit, not its over use but its missuse, usually using to much pressure on it. This is why if you think back to the glass hammer it is much the same way to view it, the head is fine it is the shaft that is the fault. So change the shaft for on that will take the strains and forces asked of it and it will last you a life time. Few good quality hammers fail because the head broke.
Economy of motion, great phrase but what does it mean? What is it wanting us to to? Motion enacts motion, by that i mean some motions which look the opposite of whats intended actualy are desirable. Why do we start some motions with a slight motion in the opposite direction? Why do we add motions where realy there should be none? Next time you play pool in a bar, just follow through to the shot, or just draw the cue back once and follow through to the shot. That is just one example, and yes there are many other benificial reasons in cueing they way it is dong, but there is an economy of motion in it, no motion is wasted, it is all used to make the cue go straight.
So economy of motion for me is what makes fingers job, the point of contact, easier. In other words do the fingers have the right height from the fretboard, are they working in the correct order, do they have all the access they need at this point in playing etc. not about where the thumb is and what the thumb is doing, as i would not worry about the position of my feet.
If need be i could play without my thumb touching the neck as can many if shown and pacticed at it, so that shows that its position is not as important are the pressure, that unseen force that no book or video will show you, that is the real culprit.
Pressure and the over use of it is what causes many hand problems, along with the lack of opposite plain motion and stretching to relieve these things.
As for the Cream video and Jack Bruce a clasical trained cello and up-right player whose jazz and blues playing is second to none, who has beem an inovator and inspiration to thousands, and in that respect maybe millions by an indirect route.
You suggest that Jacks playing could benifit from better technique....based on what? The clip shows his using one technique for that song and that time in his career.
Like i said your are basing what is best for you on to someone else, and what a someone else...Jack Bruce LOL
I think i know what Jacks reaction to you would be, and that could be anatomicaly impossible lol
Once again i have not seen any evidence to suggest that a thumb or flat finger techniques are harmfull all they are are restrictive. In being resritictive the use bigger or bundles of muscle groups, and that is strength, and strength is restrictive as it is a slow twitch response. I would explain more but this is going on and on, it is not as simple as just technique. Preform seaches on key words and get back if anyone need more info.
If you want a bit more there are a number of blogs on my myspace page about such things, these are extracts from a book that i am putting together on issues like those above. Feel free to talk to doctors and medical pofessionals about any of the stuff, you will find for the most it is verified medical facts where appropriate, and please leave any opinions or question to be considered, all welcome
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