left hand ache

[tranceFusion]

The reason stanley has to play like that is because his bass is hung so low, below his waist. If his bass was hung at his chest, it would be doubtful that he would need to wrap his thumb. By hanging his bass so low, he can't maintain a proper wrist angle without wrapping his thumb. Why is it uncool to hang your bass at your chest? I don't really have a scientific explanation for that, but IMO here Stanley has chosen style over form. Again, just because you see a "star" doing something doesn't make it right.

You contradict yourself many times, for instance" "So if you did not know already your fingers are the results of movement not the cause." then you say "great position, he lets the fingers do the work".

I agree fingers are the result of movement. This is why it is important to put that movement on body parts more able to handle it (arms) rather than to squeeze (hands). You agree squeezing is bad - would you not call this "improper technique"??

You will notice that when people stretch to counter their repetitive motion, they are doing a slow, careful stretch that does not place significant load on the body part in question. This is very different than a repetitive OVERUSE. Conditioning of course comes into play, but when muscles fail from overuse or unintended use and stress is put on tendons and ligaments, this is when strain occur. This is why proper technique is so important - putting the load on the body parts best able to cope with it.

Again, I maintain that the risk of injury due to wrapping your thumb is probably fairly low compared to all of the other bad things you can do, but I don't think it is necessarily healthy for someone who already has aggravated wrist problems. You still have made absolutely no case why it should be taught to beginners considering it has a major drawback - restriction of movement - with absolutely no positives.

Anyway, I am starting to feel guilty to myself for wasting so much time on an internet flame war, so we may just have to agree to disagree

 

[Fergie Fulton]

The reason stanley has to play like that is because his bass is hung so low, below his waist. If his bass was hung at his chest, it would be doubtful that he would need to wrap his thumb. By hanging his bass so low, he can't maintain a proper wrist angle without wrapping his thumb. Why is it uncool to hang your bass at your chest? I don't really have a scientific explanation for that, but IMO here Stanley has chosen style over form. Again, just because you see a "star" doing something doesn't make it right.

You contradict yourself many times, for instance" "So if you did not know already your fingers are the results of movement not the cause." then you say "great position, he lets the fingers do the work".

I agree fingers are the result of movement. This is why it is important to put that movement on body parts more able to handle it (arms) rather than to squeeze (hands). You agree squeezing is bad - would you not call this "improper technique"??

You will notice that when people stretch to counter their repetitive motion, they are doing a slow, careful stretch that does not place significant load on the body part in question. This is very different than a repetitive OVERUSE. Conditioning of course comes into play, but when muscles fail from overuse or unintended use and stress is put on tendons and ligaments, this is when strain occur. This is why proper technique is so important - putting the load on the body parts best able to cope with it.

Again, I maintain that the risk of injury due to wrapping your thumb is probably fairly low compared to all of the other bad things you can do, but I don't think it is necessarily healthy for someone who already has aggravated wrist problems. You still have made absolutely no case why it should be taught to beginners considering it has a major drawback - restriction of movement - with absolutely no positives.

Anyway, I am starting to feel guilty to myself for wasting so much time on an internet flame war, so we may just have to agree to disagree

Don't feel guilty for asking questions it is how we all learn and i'm no exception i need questions about what i write to make me think and investigate what i say. So lets debate, no one to win or one upmanship but debate.

The reason stanley has to play like that is because his bass is hung so low, below his waist. If his bass was hung at his chest, it would be doubtful that he would need to wrap his thumb. By hanging his bass so low, he can't maintain a proper wrist angle without wrapping his thumb. Why is it uncool to hang your bass at your chest? I don't really have a scientific explanation for that, but IMO here Stanley has chosen style over form. Again, just because you see a "star" doing something doesn't make it right.

A great observation, and again you use the word "correct", so i ask correct for who?
I assume like the Jack Bruce question you know what is better for Stanley as well as Jack, please tell me why these two legends of bass playing are wrong, i really am interested in how you know this.
Where does the correct technique come from and why is it correct?

Why is it uncool to hang your bass at your chest? I don't really have a scientific explanation for that

As the bass becomes higher it asks more of the plucking hand wrist angle. If the angle is to be reduced then the elbow must move away from the body. This is now a weak position for the limb, so the shoulder and neck muscles get involved, in particular these two, Trapezius and Splenius Capitus. Now since your strap can run along these as the bass gets higher( a lower bass allows the strap to move to the edge of the shoulder away from the neck) we now put pressure on the spine and neck. If this compressess the ulnar or radial nerve then the resuls will be felt in the fingers, leaving the sufferr with the thoughts of RSI CTS or wrse thought in their minds, when nothing could be further from the truth.

You contradict yourself many times, for instance" "So if you did not know already your fingers are the results of movement not the cause." then you say "great position, he lets the fingers do the work".

This is not contradiction, his hand is in the correct place to let his fingers work. In other words he moves his hand to whatever position on the neck to let his hand be in a position to allow the fingers movement from a straight wrist.
If i contradict myself many times please show the others.

Again, I maintain that the risk of injury due to wrapping your thumb is probably fairly low compared to all of the other bad things you can do, but I don't think it is necessarily healthy for someone who already has aggravated wrist problems

This i don't understand, you say you don't understand why a low impact, stress free wrist position that is straight( which have shown with Jack and Stanley) is not good for an aggravated wrist?
Apart from stop playing, then what is?

You still have made absolutely no case why it should be taught to beginners considering it has a major drawback - restriction of movement - with absolutely no positives.

Please read again and understand it is about building not going straight to a position. Would you consider it foolish to advise someone who wants to run, to run a marathon tommorow?
Would running much shorter races and building up to a marathon over time be a better option?
If so then what i say is no different and what i say is build in to a technique by identifying its flaws and protecting against them so you do not do serious damage.

So if you want to debate lets debate, your thoughts please.

 

[unclejane]

don't mean to jump in, but I'd have to say you're both right and making good points.

I personally use the Carol Kaye/Nitti method on the fretting hand exclusively. In fact, the very first day I ever picked up a bass (my first one, an old hofner copy from a pawn shop) my left hand just naturally assumed that position - thumb went behind neck, fingers curved around the fingerboard and without holding the neck in my palm.

I've personally actually _tried_ to use the technique that you see Billy Sheehan and Stanley Clarke use and can hardly play anything with the left hand by doing it this way.

OTOH, I remember hearing Billy Sheehan (BTW one of my bass idols and don't let him fool you - listen to his work in Niacin, some of the highest-level progressive playing you'll ever hear) say once he, Stanley Clarke, Jeff Berlin sat around in a room one night and came to the conclusion that there really wasn't any one way particular way to play the bass.

So I've come around to that way of thinking at least partially. Watching Stanley Clarke play literally makes my right arm hurt, with his wrist all crunched up looking like it is. And watching both him and Billy Sheehan holding the necks the way they do sort of makes me cringe.

But both of course are not just good on the bass they're virtuosos. And yes Jack Bruce is one of the most influential bassists of all time as well.

Another thing to note: Billy Sheehan and Stanley Clark both have long arms and absolutely gigantic hands. Perhaps this position is just more comfortable for players with larger hands like that? Louis Johnson is another player with huge hands and he plays the same way exclusively.

My hands are average size and I've also noticed many players with more average sized hands tend more to use a more classical technique.

So could be partly a function of hand size? Dunno, just speculating.

So I would tend to defend both of you guys on this as I think you're both making good points. I'm mildly on the thumb-behind-neck side because I think it's "better" technique, but I also can't deny that it's not the only way to play at a very high level....

LS

 

[Fergie Fulton]

don't mean to jump in, but I'd have to say you're both right and making good points.

I personally use the Carol Kaye/Nitti method on the fretting hand exclusively. In fact, the very first day I ever picked up a bass (my first one, an old hofner copy from a pawn shop) my left hand just naturally assumed that position - thumb went behind neck, fingers curved around the fingerboard and without holding the neck in my palm.

I've personally actually _tried_ to use the technique that you see Billy Sheehan and Stanley Clarke use and can hardly play anything with the left hand by doing it this way.

OTOH, I remember hearing Billy Sheehan (BTW one of my bass idols and don't let him fool you - listen to his work in Niacin, some of the highest-level progressive playing you'll ever hear) say once he, Stanley Clarke, Jeff Berlin sat around in a room one night and came to the conclusion that there really wasn't any one way particular way to play the bass.

So I've come around to that way of thinking at least partially. Watching Stanley Clarke play literally makes my right arm hurt, with his wrist all crunched up looking like it is. And watching both him and Billy Sheehan holding the necks the way they do sort of makes me cringe.

But both of course are not just good on the bass they're virtuosos. And yes Jack Bruce is one of the most influential bassists of all time as well.

Another thing to note: Billy Sheehan and Stanley Clark both have long arms and absolutely gigantic hands. Perhaps this position is just more comfortable for players with larger hands like that? Louis Johnson is another player with huge hands and he plays the same way exclusively.

My hands are average size and I've also noticed many players with more average sized hands tend more to use a more classical technique.

So could be partly a function of hand size? Dunno, just speculating.

So I would tend to defend both of you guys on this as I think you're both making good points. I'm mildly on the thumb-behind-neck side because I think it's "better" technique, but I also can't deny that it's not the only way to play at a very high level....

LS

Welcome in to the confusion

I agree there is no right way of wrong way, its the best way for the player. I just disagree with players that say this is wrong or this is right, it is what is best for the individual.

I have asked the right way wrong/way question and cannot find no evidence to support either when applied correctly in the right situation, but more than enough to support that if used wrong it will injure.

What i am trying to do is challange people that believe one way is right by asking them to explain where the idea comes from.

One of the best example of why goes back centuries.
Way back when the size/length of the instrument/string was a direct link to the pitch it produced. So basses were big and cumbersome, with large joints and componants to take the strain of the large long strings and a big box to reproduce the tone. Because of this a technique had to b produced to play the instrument regardless of the player. back then you played it because you could handle it, not because you wanted to. Unlike today many would not be given the chance to play because they were the wrong build for the instrument.

Antonio Stradivari (1644? - December 18, 1737) was to do much of the damage and stunt the development of the instrument and therefore its players. He built the most wonderfully crafted instrument from the finest materials available and set a benchmark of symmetry that stayed for centuries to come. His instruments were fantasic in detail and sound which others copied to give us the instruments we see to day. But why?

Is the modern up right so because of his design?
Is the reason the instrument has 4 strings because that fitted the symmetry of his design?
What is the reason the box is curved and has a waist comparable to a 17th century woman?
Why not a cut away to allow the fingering hand access?
Why not move the box over to allow easier bowing?
The technique for an up-right bass is developed on a plane that allows the wrist to hold a position as the plane is up and down, a plane our arms and hands are designed for as we climb up and down trees and is controlled by the height of the elbow.
On to Mr Fender and why did the first bases not designed to be played in an up right position, like a saxaphone say?
As it was more than likely that up-right players were the first to play these new basses did they just adapt there old technique right or wrongly for the new instrument?
If not, then why after only 60 years we are disscussing right or wrong, its impact has still to be proven?
When i started playing the Fender bass was 22 years old and there was no right or wrong back then, so why now and who is making these decisions and based on what?

Anyway makes you think...if you have a mind to

 

[Phil Smith]

I believe Stanley uses this particular technique for specific things i.e. the slapping and the sturming and the neck of an Alembic Series bass in conjunction with his hand size plays a factor too. I think he does it to mute the strings. If you see him play upright, the technique is totally different and if you see him play any of the complicated unison runs that he plays with Chick Corea his technique is different.

 

[unclejane]

Welcome in to the confusion

I agree there is no right way of wrong way, its the best way for the player. I just disagree with players that say this is wrong or this is right, it is what is best for the individual.

I have asked the right way wrong/way question and cannot find no evidence to support either when applied correctly in the right situation, but more than enough to support that if used wrong it will injure.

What i am trying to do is challange people that believe one way is right by asking them to explain where the idea comes from.

Well maybe what's the _wrong_ way is a more manageable question to ask than what's the _right_ way. You kind of allude to this here and maybe that's the correct approach.

You can narrow the field down a lot easier this way seems to me. I.e. the wrong way is a method that causes injury or inhibits the individual player from being as fully able to play the instrument as (s)he is capable. Or both.

In fact, experimentation with technique could serve as a pedagogic tool in regards to the _right_ way to play - have the student try the various different techniques we've seen work with other players and see what the results are rather than simply offer this or that technique as the only correct one. That'd optimize the chances that the student would find the technique that's correct for them.

OTOH, if we can define those techniques that are demonstrably harmful (i.e. badly bent wrists, holding the instrument in ways that are harmful) we would have a good justification for limiting the use of those techniques. I.e. we could identify when a student is doing something that could cause injury and (justifiably) teach him or her not to use those techniques. But we could do so without also limiting them from exploring other techniques that are harmless and thus _could_ be suitable.

I think at this point we have a good enough history on the instrument and enough kinesiologic knowledge to be able to narrow this down and apply it in general. I don't think we did when the instrument was in its infancy and some of the techniques we still see particularly among more long-time professions kind of reflects this. It's also true that many professionals have had bouts with injuries because of this.

So that seems like a more sensible strategy to take nowadays, now that we know so much more about the instrument and what works/doesn't work.

LS

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Well maybe what's the _wrong_ way is a more manageable question to ask than what's the _right_ way. You kind of allude to this here and maybe that's the correct approach.

You can narrow the field down a lot easier this way seems to me. I.e. the wrong way is a method that causes injury or inhibits the individual player from being as fully able to play the instrument as (s)he is capable. Or both.

In fact, experimentation with technique could serve as a pedagogic tool in regards to the _right_ way to play - have the student try the various different techniques we've seen work with other players and see what the results are rather than simply offer this or that technique as the only correct one. That'd optimize the chances that the student would find the technique that's correct for them.

OTOH, if we can define those techniques that are demonstrably harmful (i.e. badly bent wrists, holding the instrument in ways that are harmful) we would have a good justification for limiting the use of those techniques. I.e. we could identify when a student is doing something that could cause injury and (justifiably) teach him or her not to use those techniques. But we could do so without also limiting them from exploring other techniques that are harmless and thus _could_ be suitable.

I think at this point we have a good enough history on the instrument and enough kinesiologic knowledge to be able to narrow this down and apply it in general. I don't think we did when the instrument was in its infancy and some of the techniques we still see particularly among more long-time professions kind of reflects this. It's also true that many professionals have had bouts with injuries because of this.

So that seems like a more sensible strategy to take nowadays, now that we know so much more about the instrument and what works/doesn't work.

LS

Great stuff and i have to agree on all points. Why is there no sticky in the technique page about such things?
There is in the search i have just done, lots of repeat and related questions and posts, some with dubious answers i must say. Maybe this is because it cannot be offered as fact and cure due to the nature of how it is presented. I would further say that if someone followed advice about a medical problem and i went all wrong then someone is liable, maybe TB as it was on the forum that it was offered?
I don't know, that is one for the administrators.
But i sure we could have a sticky on what not to do, i.e. like the wrist angle position. We all know and medical knowledge backs this point.
Cramp is another issue that can be informed on about why it happens, how to avoid, and best remedy for safe relief if it does happen.
I'm sure there are many other avoid issues that could be stickied along with "over-use and miss-use are the two main reasons for hand injuries, if it hurts stop and seek proper medical advice"
As you say alot of information is now available it just needs quantified and posted.

 

[adamnitti]

wow, this has been an interesting thread to read so far... btw, i'm humbled that my article link was posted as a reference, so thanks, fearceol, for sharing with everyone.

i was asked by a contributor to clarify my position on my basic fretting hand approach, so i'll make an attempt to do so. anyone who has followed any of my published educational work will already be well-aware that i am a fan of 'economy of motion' and 'making things as easy as possible on yourself' when it comes to playing the bass. this is every bit about preventing injury as it is about developing dexterity, facility, and eliminating any technical obstacle. having said that, i have likewise always maintained that although what i specifically present is based on many years of experimentation and lessons learned (many learned the hard way after injury, btw), my concepts may not always fit everyone's hands in the exact way it fits mine or students of my approach. obviously, there are at the very least, subtle differences in anatomy when comparing player to player so you have to take what is presented and sometimes slightly modify it in order to fit you perfectly. if this sounds 'politically-correct', it is not meant to be... it is just that we do not all share the exact same anatomy, and maybe no less significantly, likewise possess different levels of work ethic and discipline. i say this because unfortunately there are some players who will quickly dismiss a technical approach (or any other instrumental competency or skill, for that matter) simply because it did not come 'naturally' to them or required days or weeks of practicing in order for it to work its way into their playing and become 'natural'. a lot of players are content to technically stay where they are, and i think that is totally cool and should not be criticized. however, if you are a player who is truly wanting to push themselves to the next level, you are going to have to at some point be honest and ask yourself if you have adopted and become too comfortable with any approach that might have the potential to hold you back technically or cause injury down the line.

i worked diligently for MANY years to try and find/create/adopt a basic technical approach that does not inherently contain any mechanical limitations. understand that there is no way in the scope of a single forum thread or document for me to comprehensively explain how i would address every individual playing scenario from the perspective of my 'system'. i'm not even going to begin to try and do that here. what i do want to emphasize, however, is that documents like my 'fretting hand technique' page that was referenced earlier is a single-page overview of my most basic technical approach, designed to give players at the very least a solid foundation to build from. to assume that your hands are never going to have to reasonably compensate for unique situations or that you will never have to make slight adjustments would not be feasible.

i could speak to some of the specific controversies here with respect to how to hold your hand when playing the lowest frets, should you bring your thumb over the back of the neck, etc, etc... however, i would rather just make a general point that echoes what i feel is a lot of the importance in what i have published in the past. generally speaking, none of us should be thinking about, actively monitoring, or be overly-conscious of our hand technique or playing mechanics when we are performing or playing in any other inspired, expressive, or otherwise spontaneous musical setting. what i like to say is this... practice technique for technique's sake in the practice shed, so that it will ultimately work its way into your playing naturally. if what you are practicing technically in the shed is economical, healthy, and subsequently presents no limitations to your growth as a player, then you have succeeded in establishing a worthwhile technical foundation that will eventually serve as a 'translation-free' delivery medium for your most honest and direct musical communications. BUT, finding this 'sweet spot' is going to require seriously challenging yourself and having some faith in what you are not yet fully-competent with.

a lot of rambling, i admit, but i hope this will help someone out. thanks for reading.

adam nitti
anal-retentive & obsessive bass technician

 

[Derk_Falsco]

Thanks for the insight Mr. Nitti

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Thanks for the time Adam, and all the great points.
I agree with Adam and all the others who believe it is down to the capabilities of the user, and this is why for me when one way is understood by a student to be the only way, correct way, best way, etc i will always come back with "for who". I cannot say with out meeting, talking and finding out about the history of the hands of a student or seasoned player what is best for them, so a generalisation in a book or video is never going to work unless the user has the patience, time and understanding of what is involved, and how best to apply it. Musicians are not exempt from the laws of physics and anatomy, but unfortunaltly the truth of our actions always come later in life, not at the time of playing.

 

[gai113]

The human ego never ceases to amaze me lol..... jesus christ people

- Stay as relaxed as possible

- Keep your left wrist as straight as possible

- Use the least amount of pressure needed to fret the strings

- If you are having pain stop and change your techinque

- Try to find something that works for you that is most comfortable and not causing pain/problems

 

[Fergie Fulton]

The human ego never ceases to amaze me lol..... jesus christ people

- Stay as relaxed as possible

- Keep your left wrist as straight as possible

- Use the least amount of pressure needed to fret the strings

- If you are having pain stop and change your techinque

- Try to find something that works for you that is most comfortable and not causing pain/problems

Not really paying attention in this thread yet are you cire113.
What you list is the is the most basic useless information that any common sense applied will come to those conclussions, along the lines of "why did the plane crash?.......it fell out of the sky and hit something.

- If you are having pain stop and change your techinque

- Try to find something that works for you that is most comfortable and not causing pain/problems

All egos a side why is the pain related to playing the bass?
It might be something else that happems in life and all the bass playing does is highlight it, not really the cause. So spending time changing technique, finding something that is comfortable may not be a good option, in fact maybe detremental to what was a good technique that had conflict from another source.
All egos aside it may be a temp. sort of pain, a referred pain, nothing that requires "if you have pain stop and change your technique".
By all means stop, that is a given, but find out why you have the pain, identify the cause, the source if you will....not the result. Once again these things are specific to the person, like technique it is all about the person using it.

 

[gai113]

Well according to all the information in this thread

Marcus Miller, Larry graham, Bootsy collins, Victor Wooten and Stanley clarke have wrong left hand bass technique lol


The only reason i personally dont like putting my thumb on the back of the neck is im unable to keep my left wrist straight this way... whenever i bend either wrist right of left i have problems...

It seems that everyone thinks their left hand techinque is the right way and only way...

 

[unclejane]

Well according to all the information in this thread

Marcus Miller, Larry graham, Bootsy collins, Victor Wooten and Stanley clarke have wrong left hand bass technique lol


The only reason i personally dont like putting my thumb on the back of the neck is im unable to keep my left wrist straight this way... whenever i bend either wrist right of left i have problems...

It seems that everyone thinks their left hand techinque is the right way and only way...

Another thing that's worth mentioning on this...

Sometimes it's not the player but the bass. One of the most prevalent problems with the Fender style basses is the balance, AKA neck-dive. In a lot of cases, an improper (for the player) technique is used simply because of having to hold the instrument (i.e. keep the neck up in a comfortable position). I've seen this a lot, where the thumb-over-the-neck method is used to the player's detriment and they'd otherwise prefer to use a more classical technique like Adam's and Carol Kaye, etc. but the instrument makes this very difficult or impossible.

Or they may still stick to the thumb-behind-neck method but crank the wrist over in half to try to get through the gig somehow. This was what I did for years with my rickenbackers and I have the same problem with my G&L's. That was before I discovered that neck dive is a problem (not a feature) and went about trying to correct it (I did recently when I bought my carvin bunny 6 which balances correctly).

Again, I'm not a teacher (hell I'm not even a professional player anymore) but if I were I would consider instrument fit one of my responsibilities towards my students. I.e. if it's clear that neck dive or some other fit problem on the student's instrument is a hindrance to what they're trying to do, I'd start looking for ways to fix it.

LS

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Or they may still stick to the thumb-behind-neck method but crank the wrist over in half to try to get through the gig somehow. This was what I did for years with my rickenbackers and I have the same problem with my G&L's. That was before I discovered that neck dive is a problem (not a feature) and went about trying to correct it (I did recently when I bought my carvin bunny 6 which balances correctly).

Again another side to the "problem" and a great addition to the dabate. I had some great questions sent in private messages but the answers could not be sent as they were was so detailed. So i posted Left Hand Ache 2 using the questions posed by cire133 to answer all rather than high jack this one.
Follow the link
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578510