Left hand angle and slanted fingers/thumb

[StoneFrog]

Hi everybody, I'm new here. Started playing about 2 years ago and am really trying to work on my technique.

First, my left thumb never knows where to go. I follow Adam Neely's video and slant it towards the neck when playing in the lower frets, but even so, it feels like my thumb is too..."long" sometimes? In some playing positions, it's like it's going "into" the neck. Also seen advice about not bending the knuckle of the thumb, but without that, sometimes the pad of my thumb isn't making contact with the neck. It'll be the corner of my nail or the bony inside of the knuckle that touches the neck first, and that's very uncomfortable.

I use 1-2-4 fingering below fret 5 because I have small hands, and this is where the angled thumb (which I need to have, otherwise my wrist will bend) becomes a problem because I need more pressure to fret evenly - and now my thumb, as a fulcrum, is too far out to be of any good. Unless I stick my elbow out like ten inches, the angle of my left hand seems to invariably differ here. It's more parallel to my neck in the middle (or rather, you can think of fingers 1 through 4 as coming at the frets more perpendicular), but farther out, the two don't match up at all. When I *do* use a 1-2-3-4 span in the lower frets I have to deal with a lot of shifting/pivoting.

I've gone to two bass instructors, who think my thumb positioning is fine, but they do believe my fingers pivot and fly off the fretboard too easily. But because the hand is at a different angle than the neck, I can't clamp them all down without my palm and the meat around the base of my thumb tensing up. I don't get wrist pain/tension. But I do get a good amount of left hand cramping/tension when I play in the lower frets for too long.

I really have no idea what to do. I guess what I'm asking is if the angle and space between my hand and the frets is "normal" or if I really have to stick my elbow out and get it more parallel. Or maybe I should point my wrist up more? Then I run the risk of my thumb wrapping over the neck, though, and losing some speed.

I've attached two pictures to try and illustrate what I'm talking about. I know there's no one right answer but I've let myself get psyched out about this. Could really appreciate some others' perspectives. Thanks!

 

[Mushroo]

You're on the right track. If I could give you a couple of tips:

1. Maybe it's the camera angle, but it looks like the action on your bass is fairly high? I wonder if you tried setting up the bass so the strings are closer to the frets, you could play more relaxed.
2. You're doing what I call "butt crack palm" where the base of your thumb squeezes into your palm, resulting in a deeply creased life-line. Try making your palm wide, soft, and open. I like to visualize that I'm juggling grapefruit.

 

[Malcolm35]

Main thing is if your wrist is in a normal position, i.e. not in a painful angle you are OK. Normally fretting with the pad of your finger and not the tip tends to pull the wrist into the correct angle.

As to the thumb. I try and keep my thumb in the middle of the back side of the neck. If I have to side the thumb slides also.

I pay more attention to wrist angle than what my thumb is doing.

Offered for what it is worth.

 

[fearceol]

The thumb is there to simply support the fingers and should be allowed to go where it naturally needs/wants, in order to carry out this "work".




Here is another clip on general fretting hand technique :

 

[StoneFrog]

Thanks for the help guys.

Mushroo- My strings are a bit high but I can't lower them without getting a buzz all over the fretboard on the E and A strings. Maybe my neck is too straight? It sounds like the buzzing comes from fret 24 though. Good tip on the palm, I can definitely avoid it bunching up if I leave my thumb out more. I don't get it tbh. One of my teachers is a very technical player and his is always pointed towards the headstock.

Malcolm35- Yeah, I think it's better to focus on my wrist, but that seems to go against the advice for keeping my fingers an equal distance from the board...I'm not sure how it's easier to play with the pads though? It seems if I do that it's harder to arc my fingers and not block the higher strings. It also requires more force to play.

fearceol- Hmm, helpful videos. Especially the exercises in the second one. When I play 1-2-3-4 on the lower frets I think it's easier for me to shift horizontally than to keep my thumb around or to "pivot" with it.

 

[JKos]

It seems if I do that it's harder to arc my fingers and not block the higher strings. It also requires more force to play.

We are often trying to mute strings with our fretting hand fingers, not clear them. Because of that, playing with the pads is very common. For example, if I'm fretting a note on the A string with my index finger, the tip of my finger is likely touching the E string and behind the pad is touching the D and A strings.

As said above, your wrists (both of them) are most important. Keep them comfortable, let your thumb go where it needs to go to make that happen.

Definitely keep in mind there is no one right answer/technique for everyone. For example, if I try making my palm too "wide, soft, and open" my wrist hurts because it puts my hand in an unnatural position for me. But, my wrist is usually completely straight.

- John

 

[Lobster11]

But because the hand is at a different angle than the neck, I can't clamp them all down without my palm and the meat around the base of my thumb tensing up.

This part of the OP stood out to me. You don't need to "clamp them all down" at the same time. If you were to play F followed by G, it would be efficient to keep your index finger over the first fret while playing the G, but it no longer needs to be "clamped" down on the F note. I can't think of any situation in which it is useful or necessary to apply equal pressure on three or four consecutive frets simultaneously.

Also, "clamping" sounds to me like you might be squeezing harder than you have to when fretting notes. As @Mushroo often points out, you shouldn't need any more strength to fret a note than you do to type a letter on a computer keyboard. You might want to work on lightening your grip. This should help increase speed, reduce fatigue, and -- perhaps most relevant to your situation -- reduce the work your thumb has to do to compensate.

My strings are a bit high but I can't lower them without getting a buzz all over the fretboard on the E and A strings. Maybe my neck is too straight? It sounds like the buzzing comes from fret 24 though.

This is worth checking. It's possible that you have your strings set high because you don't have enough relief in the neck. A proper setup might help.

 

[StoneFrog]

This part of the OP stood out to me. You don't need to "clamp them all down" at the same time. If you were to play F followed by G, it would be efficient to keep your index finger over the first fret while playing the G, but it no longer needs to be "clamped" down on the F note. I can't think of any situation in which it is useful or necessary to apply equal pressure on three or four consecutive frets simultaneously.

It seems a lot of those finger independence exercises want you to keep those fingers down, though - or at least in contact with the strings. But I agree it seems unnecessary for playing, unless you're about to repeat the same phrase or something.

When I play lower notes I rarely have more than two fingers pressed at once, since I use Simandl.

Should I make the neck more concave then? Maybe it is worth it to have someone else set it up. I feel like I've somehow put my bass in some weird situation now where I can't adjust it like I used to.

 

[SteveCS]

It seems a lot of those finger independence exercises want you to keep those fingers down, though - or at least in contact with the strings. But I agree it seems unnecessary for playing, unless you're about to repeat the same phrase or something.

When I play lower notes I rarely have more than two fingers pressed at once, since I use Simandl.

...

Funny you should mention this - it is also being discussed elsewhere...
Scale's harder going up than down

 

[Mushroo]

It seems a lot of those finger independence exercises want you to keep those fingers down, though - or at least in contact with the strings. But I agree it seems unnecessary for playing, unless you're about to repeat the same phrase or something.

Be careful with those "spider" type finger exercises. They can reinforce bad habits, in my opinion.

 

[StoneFrog]

Interesting discussion. Also, I thought the book "Bass Fitness" said to keep the fingers down, in the introduction, but it seems to vary by exercise. Part A for example is just "all 4 fingers moving across the fingerboard."

So, I tried "dropping" my palm so it's not "pointed up" so much, like in the second video by fearceol. I feel like my fingers are more flexible here but I get an uncomfortable popping feeling in my wrist when I stop playing. If I look at it using my phone...I don't see how this (A) is better for my wrist than the way I had it before (B).

More flexible maybe, but it seems worse for my wrist. But, what the hell? It looks like other people do it all the time. See: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

Be careful with those "spider" type finger exercises. They can reinforce bad habits, in my opinion.

I'm not interested in stretching more either. Shifting seems fine.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Elbows up and your hands instantly line up with your wrists.
Makes you look like an albatross but you're hiding behind a bass so nobody sees it.

 

[Lobster11]

More flexible maybe, but it seems worse for my wrist. But, what the hell? It looks like other people do it all the time. See: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

It made my hand hurt just looking at the first few photos on that page, and I had to read the text to see if it said "here's an example of what not to do." I'm sure this guy has forgotten more about playing bass than I'll ever know, but this looks to me like a recipe for a very short career.

Check out the first part of this video of Julie Slick playing fast, technical stuff on a five-string. Her hands are probably smaller than yours, but watch how relaxed her hand looks throughout: It seems effortless. Notice that she only uses one-finger-per-fret when she needs to, and not when she doesn't -- and never when she's playing down near the nut. (BTW, I think this is also a great demonstration of right-hand technique with a pick -- but that's for another thread.)

 

[Mushroo]

A huuuuuuuuuge +1 to everything the Lobster just said. Julie Slick si, Doug Ross no.

Here's another of my favorite bassists. Notice how perfectly straight and relaxed both his left-hand and right-hand wrists are. No tension anywhere in his body. Adam has been doing this every night since 1976, and he's still going strong!

 

[JRA]

I've let myself get psyched out about this

 

[JKos]

@StoneFrog,
After watching the Julie Slick video, do you understand what several of us are trying to say?

1. Relaxed
2. Light touch
3. Straight wrists
4. Thumb goes where it needs to go

- John

 

[StoneFrog]

@StoneFrog,
After watching the Julie Slick video, do you understand what several of us are trying to say?

1. Relaxed
2. Light touch
3. Straight wrists
4. Thumb goes where it needs to go

- John

Yeah, her playing style makes a lot more sense to me and is how I'd rather it "look." Very helpful video to study. I think I'm going to stick with my more relaxed style because so far it hasn't limited my speed. Then again I don't play anything really fast right now (been transcribing "Elegy" by Colosseum, the second half is about my breaking point). I guess that's a separate thing to practice.

 

[vindibona1]

You're on the right track. If I could give you a couple of tips:

1. Maybe it's the camera angle, but it looks like the action on your bass is fairly high? I wonder if you tried setting up the bass so the strings are closer to the frets, you could play more relaxed.
2. You're doing what I call "butt crack palm" where the base of your thumb squeezes into your palm, resulting in a deeply creased life-line. Try making your palm wide, soft, and open. I like to visualize that I'm juggling grapefruit.

View attachment 3755122

This is an excellent reply. I don't think I'm qualified to talk about what is effective in terms of hand positioning. However, I can tell you from my perspective as someone who has arthritis in both hands, action and neck relief makes a HUGE difference in everything. I think relief is the simplest, yet most overlooked aspect of adjustments in both bass and guitar. People who don't check and adjust relief frequently run in three categories: Those who are lazy, those who are afraid to do it (it's simple) and those who just don't care. If your bass' frets are level then you should be able to get the strings as low a 4/64th"- or lower. Neck relief, if can be reduced as much as possible (I believe mine is around .007") you might be surprised at how much easier it is to play. Even with arthritis, I can do 2 and 3 hour gigs without any discomfort.YMMV

 

[Watchootognbout]

Elbows up and your hands instantly line up with your wrists.
Makes you look like an albatross but you're hiding behind a bass so nobody sees it.

Here's an albatross!

 

[StoneFrog]

I wanted to provide an update, though it isn't exactly wrist angle-related:

Sometimes when stretching from the left index to the left pinky finger whilst keeping the left index finger down, i.e. when hammering a second in the lower frets, I would feel a sort of flexing or "popping" in the tendon of my left wrist, like there's a bubble in there.

For some reason last week, it became noticeable when doing anything - typing, playing for more than 15 minutes, etc. It doesn't matter if my wrist is completely straight and I'm playing with a single finger, exerting next-to-no pressure. It seems to have to do with how I flex my fingers.

Sometimes there's a bit of tingling, which occurs in the back of the hand or in the pinky/ring finger. Seems to correspond with the ulnar nerve? I'll take another break, but this is really strange after years of not having a problem with Simandl, and not experiencing continual discomfort since my first weeks playing bass. Unless my wrists have suddenly grown some strange new muscles. It's very stressful, especially since (with all the other strangeness going on in the world) I probably won't be able to see a doctor for a while.