Perhaps I am misunderstanding your problem, but...as I see it.. if you are using the thumb as a pivot (are you...?) there should be no need to stretch while doing what you describe above.
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Left hand angle and slanted fingers/thumb
- Thread starter StoneFrog
- Start date
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your problem, but...as I see it.. if you are using the thumb as a pivot (are you...?) there should be no need to stretch while doing what you describe above.
I'm not sure how I can pivot and keep the first note pressed at the same time, as in the case of a hammer-on? So I'm not really pivoting here, and for frets 1-3 I don't have to if I use Simandl. But as a result it's a "squeezing" motion to get the other finger down, I guess, and after a while my wrist starts popping like I've been squeezing a hand grip all day. I find this very distracting. I'm not sure if it's the direct cause of the tingling in my left hand right now, since working from home has also put new strain on my arm.
I mentioned those finger independence exercises a while back because I thought I had to learn how to fret with the pinky/ring fingers without the rest of my hand also tensing up, but now my wrist is bothering me anyway so I need to re-assess...
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"Butt crack palm" plus a "popping" or "tingling" sensation in the wrist, are a really bad combination. Don't ignore these warning signs!
I recommend to skip hammer-on exercises for the time being, until you've figured out these basic mechanical issues. For now, do not keep your 1st finger pressed down while you are playing a note with your 4th finger. Simply play the note at the 3rd fret as a "normal" (non-hammer-on) note. The audience won't know the difference.
I recommend to skip hammer-on exercises for the time being, until you've figured out these basic mechanical issues. For now, do not keep your 1st finger pressed down while you are playing a note with your 4th finger. Simply play the note at the 3rd fret as a "normal" (non-hammer-on) note. The audience won't know the difference.
I'll take your advice. As for the "butt crack palm," it's necessary to keep my thumb in contact with the neck (do I have shorter than average thumbs?) - unless I stick it way out, like a hitchhiker's thumb.
I did take one lesson with Mike Richmond, who's a bit shorter than me, and I noticed he lets his thumb go off to the side when playing fast, so I guess he's in the Adam Neely camp (or maybe I should say vice versa).
A bit of advice.
Do not say "stretching"if you're really mean reaching.
That sets off a whole lot of "Don't ever stretch"scolding.
Which I tend to agree with.
I do a lot of reaching like you do.
But not stretching.
As for the "popping"I'm not a physical therapist,but that maybe tendons shifting.
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No "camp," I think what you are describing is just the "normal" way how most bassists play: reposition the thumb as necessary, so it doesn't cramp up. For example watch any Rush concert video, and you'll see Geddy Lee doing a lot of "hitchhiker thumb. " Or another player who had a "mobile" thumb and avoided the "butt crack" technique was John Entwistle from The Who. Another great example, have you watched the Adam Clayton video I posted on March 26th?
Hands are back to normal and I'm easing back into a little bit of playing.
The most strenuous situation I typically find myself in is playing in F minor Aeolian. I can 1-2-4 it fine, but if let's say I'm reaching for that G# with my pinky right after F, followed by A# with the index again, I lose a lot of "stability" going index, shift, pinky, shift, index. Those are the kinds of situations where my tendons feel weird.
Higher up the neck, it's okay, because I've started to use the index or pinky as a pivot (for cleaner string crossing), but I just can't do that in the lower positions, so I'm using more force.
Reaching* yeah. I don't do any "stretching" outside my span before frets 9-10 or so. I think you are describing the shifting tendon in my arm but it's really freaky when I feel it suddenly. Rapid alternation between index and pinky seems like what brings it out.
The most strenuous situation I typically find myself in is playing in F minor Aeolian. I can 1-2-4 it fine, but if let's say I'm reaching for that G# with my pinky right after F, followed by A# with the index again, I lose a lot of "stability" going index, shift, pinky, shift, index. Those are the kinds of situations where my tendons feel weird.
Higher up the neck, it's okay, because I've started to use the index or pinky as a pivot (for cleaner string crossing), but I just can't do that in the lower positions, so I'm using more force.
Yup, I noticed Adam's thumb is often over in that video. Mine approaches the top when I want to relax during a repetitive passage.
You have to admit:He's not doing anything that complex.
That F minor groove doesn't demand that he open his fingers.
I'd like to see his left hand if He played this!
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I don't see probably the most important thing mentioned (if so apologies for not seeing it) - make sure you're not having to hold or support the bass with either hand or arm. The bass should be in your comfortable playing position without having to touch it at all with either hand, and it must remain in that position while you play it.
Here's an older video of Bunny Brunel talking about the "balance" issue (just in the first few minutes is where he really dwells on it):
Take if from me - no matter what you try, if you're having to hold the instrument in position with your hands while you're trying to play it, you absolutely will not ever be able to find the correct (for you) positions of either hand - plucking or fretting.
If you have a poorly balanced instrument (as 95% of us do and 100% of us who play Fender basses do), you need to fix this first. Add weights, or come up with straps or tie things to your belts, make harnesses, sit on the straps, whatever, it doesn't matter. Do whatever you got to do so the instrument stays in playing position by itself without you having to hold on to it or support the neck with the fretting hand, etc..
What I do with my Jazz bass, which I play seated about 99% of the time, is I simply sit on the strap - I pull it through until it holds the neck up in a more vertical position. When standing there are things you can do with weights and harnesses and so forth. But it's absolutely critical that you fix this first, if you have problems with balance.
What it sounds like, based on what I'm hearing in your description, is there's an about 90-95% chance that you're struggling with exactly this. It's easy to emulate a comfortable position with your hand just on the instrument even if you're having to support the neck or push down on the body, etc. But once you start playing is when all hell breaks loose. The neck starts to dive and you chase it with your hand and then suddenly you're all out of position. You'll go to the hospital and then to the Rubber Room chasing this if the bass isn't properly balanced and/or held in position by some means..
Don't ask me how I know all this.
So that'd be the first checklist item before you try to change anything else. Make sure you're not holding onto the instrument. Once that's fixed, then start working on finding the comfortable right and left hand positions and techniquest...
L
Here's an older video of Bunny Brunel talking about the "balance" issue (just in the first few minutes is where he really dwells on it):
Take if from me - no matter what you try, if you're having to hold the instrument in position with your hands while you're trying to play it, you absolutely will not ever be able to find the correct (for you) positions of either hand - plucking or fretting.
If you have a poorly balanced instrument (as 95% of us do and 100% of us who play Fender basses do), you need to fix this first. Add weights, or come up with straps or tie things to your belts, make harnesses, sit on the straps, whatever, it doesn't matter. Do whatever you got to do so the instrument stays in playing position by itself without you having to hold on to it or support the neck with the fretting hand, etc..
What I do with my Jazz bass, which I play seated about 99% of the time, is I simply sit on the strap - I pull it through until it holds the neck up in a more vertical position. When standing there are things you can do with weights and harnesses and so forth. But it's absolutely critical that you fix this first, if you have problems with balance.
What it sounds like, based on what I'm hearing in your description, is there's an about 90-95% chance that you're struggling with exactly this. It's easy to emulate a comfortable position with your hand just on the instrument even if you're having to support the neck or push down on the body, etc. But once you start playing is when all hell breaks loose. The neck starts to dive and you chase it with your hand and then suddenly you're all out of position. You'll go to the hospital and then to the Rubber Room chasing this if the bass isn't properly balanced and/or held in position by some means..
Don't ask me how I know all this.
So that'd be the first checklist item before you try to change anything else. Make sure you're not holding onto the instrument. Once that's fixed, then start working on finding the comfortable right and left hand positions and techniquest...
L
Sounds like beginner death grip to me.
Don't depend on your thumb grip to press down on the strings.
That's a job for your arm and shoulder muscles.
Play a few scales with your thumb removed from the neck completely,
use your arm and shoulder to pull your fingers against the neck. Note how that feels.
Beginners will tense up when something is difficult, Relax instead.
Tension is the enemy, relaxed accuracy is victory.
Gary Willis has a good exercise for how hard to fret your notes
Don't depend on your thumb grip to press down on the strings.
That's a job for your arm and shoulder muscles.
Play a few scales with your thumb removed from the neck completely,
use your arm and shoulder to pull your fingers against the neck. Note how that feels.
Beginners will tense up when something is difficult, Relax instead.
Tension is the enemy, relaxed accuracy is victory.
Gary Willis has a good exercise for how hard to fret your notes
Are you sure that song is in F Minor?
No disrespect to Dave LaRue, but I've noticed in many photos, he appears to wear a brace or splint on his left wrist. So, if you're thinking of modeling your own technique based on LaRue's technique: be careful!
I watched LaRue's "Essential Bass Concepts" video and was not impressed with his "butt crack palm" technique. For example the exercise LaRue demonstrates at 5:40 of the video, you can see how "scrunched" his left-hand palm looks (which is maybe why he has to wear the wrist brace). It's also interesting to note that this technique doesn't actually sound very good! If you close your eyes and listen, you can hear the G# he plays at the 4th fret with his pinky doesn't sound "clean" at all.
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Not meaning to couch-quarterback things here, but most of what you're seeing in Dave LaRue's video is the result of a poorly balanced instrument. I don't think DL is at fault, he's clearly just coping with a poorly fitting and imbalanced bass as best he can. The telltale symptom is the headstock-in-the-next-county syndrome that's common on basses like that one with teensy upper horns and a lot of neck-heaviness. You can see how far his arm is stretched out when he goes back to half-position to play the low F and just move around in general in that part of the neck.
So, to bring this back to the original topic, this is a good illustration of how untreated poor balance can completely impede a comfortable technique. He tries to maintain the same position as he goes down towards the neck, but he just can't do it because the instrument just doesn't let him do it with good physical economy.
Contrast that with the Gary Willis video, where the instrument has better balance. He doesn't have to reach out into the next county to play in the lower areas of the neck, so hes able to stay in position down there a lot better.
Another cause of the headstock-in-the-next-county problem is insisting on placing the instrument between the legs classical-guitar style when playing seated. This looks classy, but with a long scale bass, it can cause the same problem with being able to reach the lower part of the neck in an ergonomic way. Placing it on the right leg instead (RH player) moves everything over making that part of the neck easier to reach. The compromise is now the upper registers are harder to reach, but then you're much more comfortable down in half position.
As for the braces/splints, I don't think that's what those are. I may be wrong, but I think they're just the little towel things that keep the sweat from running down your arm onto the bass....
L
When did I indicate that both songs where in the same key?
I'm pointing out the difference of effort needed to play both tunes.
And who knows when that instruction vid was recorded?
Before of after the Dregs recording?
And that doesn't look like a splint.
I don't see any rigid reinforcement.
Yeah.Dave plays with his bass on the right leg when sittng.
I don't.
I play with mine between my legs like Gary.
But a whole lot lower.
With my legs open.
I have no problems reaching the first frets standing or sitting.
So there's a lot of similarities and difference that apply and don't apply.
Well, I got some lighter strings, reduced my action a bit more. I used the 7th fret on A as a reference point (since I tend to play in that area a lot) and got the 7th fret on all strings pretty easy to fret now. Of course I'm a bit nervous if/when the "left wrist tendon pop/flex" will come back! It must be from trying to squeeze the neck between my fingers, though, regardless of how upturned or not my palm is.
I once saw a thread about putting a strap button on the neck/headstock. Skip Battin did it? Early P basses had a button there as well. I've thought about it.
I play an SR300 and it does dive a bit. I like to have my neck at about a 45-50 degree angle for more demanding stuff, but before I know it it's back to 30 degrees.
I once saw a thread about putting a strap button on the neck/headstock. Skip Battin did it? Early P basses had a button there as well. I've thought about it.
No worries! Is that mostly so you don't repeat the same note name twice?
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Look at your left arm, particularly how hard you've got the wrist twisted around so you can fret the instrument - one can easily see that that's not a good long-term ergonomic situation for your fretting hand and wrist. Might be ok for now, but over the long term, the chances are very high that you'll eventually start to end up with problems...
L
