Less low end when playing live : are high end amps worth it?

[Toby S]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

 

[Drredplate]

Wow
What an education. Thank you everybody.

I think I will invest in a hpf pedal.
Has anyone had any experience with a Glasgow based company called sine effect?
I’m in London so kind of makes sense but Broughton seems to be a safe choice.

Yes I have a sine effects HPF.
Well made piece of kit.
I would recommend it
They are hand made to order so you can converse with the bloke that makes them.
I had mine modified to have a variable slope

 

[pepj]

I'd approach it by getting my sound up..that just means i get the top and bottom sorted.
I'm not big on messing with hi and low mids..I back them off typically..and my cut through is my tone control.
My low end is just full enough. Then just make sure everyone else doesn't conflict..the only thing to really worry about is an over enthusiastic acoustic.

And the other trick is to be punchy but not too loud because thats when more sounds tend to clash. Bass and kit is easy...but keys and gtr sounds need to know their layer space for sure.

 

[stingray69]

Just thought I'd throw in this video - it goes through a few common brand amp combos and really shows the varying voicings between them.

Not sure if will be helpful, but it might be a starting point for someone wondering what's the difference in overall tonal characteristics between a few models on the market.

 

[backin82]

I'll throw out a crazy idea. You don't need an HPF. You just need an understanding of EQ, and a few basic controls. Once you get comfortable with the idea that "your sound" will change in every room and the basic premise of scooped sounding generally better when solo'd and flatter/mid-present sound fitting better in a band mix, it'll all make sense.

A good friend of mine (and excellent live sound tech) really pushed me into this by mixing my amp for me before a show once. He dialed it in, and it sounded horrible when I played by myself. I was super skeptical when he assured me it was the right tone for the mix. Sounded WAY too honky and quacky by itself, but it actually sounded great in the overall mix. I became a believer that night.

 

[agedhorse]

I'll throw out a crazy idea. You don't need an HPF. You just need an understanding of EQ, and a few basic controls. Once you get comfortable with the idea that "your sound" will change in every room and the basic premise of scooped sounding generally better when solo'd and flatter/mid-present sound fitting better in a band mix, it'll all make sense.

A good friend of mine (and excellent live sound tech) really pushed me into this by mixing my amp for me before a show once. He dialed it in, and it sounded horrible when I played by myself. I was super skeptical when he assured me it was the right tone for the mix. Sounded WAY too honky and quacky by itself, but it actually sounded great in the overall mix. I became a believer that night.

A HPF is a very useful tool.

Sure you can pound a drywall screw in with a hammer but the results are so much better with a proper tool... What we are suggesting is that there are better tools out there to accomplish this, and the HPF is one such tool. Like all tools, learning how to use it helps.

 

[backin82]

A HPF is a very useful tool.

Sure you can pound a drywall screw in with a hammer but the results are so much better with a proper tool... What we are suggesting is that there are better tools out there to accomplish this, and the HPF is one such tool. Like all tools, learning how to use it helps.

"Better" is subjective. I've gotten the results I wanted using different techniques. You are claiming that my use of EQ, contour switch, and sometimes my tone knob is analogous to banging a screw into a wall with a hammer?

Plus, I never said an HPF was useless. I'm simply pushing back against the notion that a person "needs" one to remove low end or clarify their sound in a full band mix.

 

[Sparky Mark]

My Trace Elliot has a zillion-band graphic EQ and the balance control of the two-band compressor is the only easily tweakable control once the gig gets started. The faders on the graphic have too much range meaning I have to kneel down and fiddle plus there are too many of them. I used to think the more EQ bands the better but not any more!

The ten band TE graphic EQ is useful when you understand how each slider affects your tone. In many venues the most useful is the 30hz slider, which when cut acts very much like a pseudo HPF by reducing the deepest lows

Wow
What an education. Thank you everybody.

I think I will invest in a hpf pedal.
Has anyone had any experience with a Glasgow based company called sine effect?
I’m in London so kind of makes sense but Broughton seems to be a safe choice.

I use a Rafferty HPF (UK based), which I think is the Fdeck design available via his Reverb or Facebook sites. It's an always on for me (PP3 battery and 9v external PSU powered) set at the lowest frequency, which has never failed to improve my tone and increase headroom when things get loud towards the end of a set.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

Two categories here..Having FOH and what you need when you don’t. In either case this is your personal instrumental monitor but how you EQ and the acceptable stage volume more than likely need to be different.

The main thing with performances with FOH support is the less stage wash there is, the better is it for the house. Your EQ and volume needs to be set to not giving the sound person a problem. The first thing to consider is your rig is not required to provide the low end of the band for the house. In fact the less of it you can live with on stage, the better it is for the mix. A good sound tech will add in what frequencies need to be added.

One of the problem with “scooped” EQ and heavy low end is it needs to be louder to hear it on stage. By adopting a more mid centered EQ, less sub 100hz but more 140-170 hz, you will not need as much volume to hear yourself on stage. The sound tech will add in the appropriate amount of low end for a good customer experience. I will also suggest a POLITE conversation with the sound tech if you have any special needs, the require major changes to your tone. For instance,” a this point in song A, I’m going to be using my bridge pickup for 16 bars them I’m slamming the neck pick up to “Quad Forte”. Better to give him a set list with written instructions for major changes in tone.

On a gig without FOH, feel free to bring your thermal nuclear bomb of rig as you are providing the low end for the band and have the need to cover the room. But take note of the acoustics of the venue as well showing some consideration for any service workers there that may need to communicate while they work.

 

[agedhorse]

"Better" is subjective. I've gotten the results I wanted using different techniques. You are claiming that my use of EQ, contour switch, and sometimes my tone knob is analogous to banging a screw into a wall with a hammer?

Plus, I never said an HPF was useless. I'm simply pushing back against the notion that a person "needs" one to remove low end or clarify their sound in a full band mix.

I’m suggesting that there be better tools for some players who are willing (or interested) to learn about them. If you are getting what you want from your rig, then there’s no need for you.

 

[backin82]

I’m suggesting that there be better tools for some players who are willing (or interested) to learn about them. If you are getting what you want from your rig, then there’s no need for you.

Again, "better" is subjective. You don't need an HPF to EQ some lows out of the mix or add some mids. Do you disagree?

I'm just offering an alternative perspective for those who may be interested in working within the framework of their current gear, especially when the OP is asking about the value of gear related to performance.

 

[pepj]

I've never had to use a HPF in my bass monitor chain.

If others want to then thats on them.

I do subscribe to the high level amp thing though.

 

[agedhorse]

Again, "better" is subjective. You don't need an HPF to EQ some lows out of the mix or add some mids. Do you disagree?

I'm just offering an alternative perspective for those who may be interested in working within the framework of their current gear, especially when the OP is asking about the value of gear related to performance.

It depends on HOW you wish to do it, WHAT you are trying exactly to accomplish, and how effectively without creating other issues that may unintentionally impact tone. Clearly adding mids to the signal is not something that a HPF can do (wrong tool for THAT job) but I would have thought this was obvious.

Everything regarding tone is subjective, but there are objective elements that are used to arrive at the subjective solution.

Subjectively to some players, they don't even need or want an amplifier or any electronics (some upright players), therefore objectively any amplification is the wrong tool for their job... but that will limit the types of gigs they can play.

EQ is one tool, but it is VERY different from a HPF and not nearly as effective in solving some very practical, real world problems.

 

[Solipsistik]

EQ is one tool, but it is VERY different from a HPF and not nearly as effective in solving some very practical, real world problems.

Agreed. Get 95% of your tone from the EQ tools, and then adjust the HPF to improve speaker response and cut out some of the 'woof' that typically doesn't help with tone. It does this without changing much in the way of the EQ'd sound, letting you retain the tone you like without the potential downsides.

And sure, if you have a great EQ, you can more or less do the same thing. Most amps don't have a 8+ band EQ (my Behringer does) and a lot of them don't even have compression, much less HP/LP filters. They're tools - and often those tools allow finesse that you don't otherwise have. Usually, they're less complex than setting up a multi-band EQ in a mix.

 

[Wasnex]

Again, "better" is subjective. You don't need an HPF to EQ some lows out of the mix or add some mids. Do you disagree?

I am pretty confident Agedhorse feels variable HPFs are essential for his application (AFAIK he doesn't play bass). This is one of those YMMV type things.

I use HPF extensively while running sound. The quality of my mixes were greatly improved with a mixer that has variable HPFs. The benefit were not subtle IMHO.

I have never gigged a bass rig with a built in variable HPF. However, I tended to run pretty lean lows in order to get the mid-range clarity and evenness that I desired. It's possible an HPF would have allowed me to run a bit fuller lows without compromising the mids.

So IMHO, are HPFs essential? No. Are HPFs potentially useful in a bass rig? Yes. Is it possible to get exactly the same results with EQ? In general, no; not exactly. Is the difference between HPF and no HPF very noticeable with a bass rig? No; I would expect the benefit to be subtle in most circumstances.

I do own a couple of amp with built in variable HPFs, and the feature could definitely be useful/beneficial to me. FYI I believe Agedhorse was significantly involved in the design of both of the amps: Genz Benz GBE1200 and Shutttlemax 12.2.

I also have some high-end speaker processors with variable HPFs: Klark Teknik DN9848E. My observation is that a properly configured HPF can allow an inadequate woofer to play louder, sound fuller, and sound more focused.

I think most bassist will appreciate more headroom and the ability to dial in fuller sounding lows. Some bassist, don't particularly care for more focused lows, so they may not find an HPF useful.

 

[Solipsistik]

I have never gigged a bass rig with a built in variable HPF. However, I tended to run pretty lean lows in order to get the mid-range clarity and evenness that I desired. It's possible an HPF would have allowed me to run a bit fuller lows without compromising the mids.

I've been asked by sound people on more than one occasion to lower my bass and low mids so that they can manage them from front of house. It's hard to remove those frequencies, but easy to boost them. With a good HPF, you can likely make that change without touching the tone you like, just cut some of the very bottom lows so that the sound system doesn't get overpowered by them. It's the mids that help you stand out in most mixes, anyway.

 

[backin82]

It depends on HOW you wish to do it, WHAT you are trying exactly to accomplish, and how effectively without creating other issues that may unintentionally impact tone. Clearly adding mids to the signal is not something that a HPF can do (wrong tool for THAT job) but I would have thought this was obvious.

Everything regarding tone is subjective, but there are objective elements that are used to arrive at the subjective solution.

Subjectively to some players, they don't even need or want an amplifier or any electronics (some upright players), therefore objectively any amplification is the wrong tool for their job... but that will limit the types of gigs they can play.

EQ is one tool, but it is VERY different from a HPF and not nearly as effective in solving some very practical, real world problems.

I understand and appreciate your insight I was just offering what I thought was another option for the OP that may (or may not) be useful for them based on their original question and lines of thinking.

It was not my intent to start an argument about all possible uses and value of HPFs.

 

[jdjk7]

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

I'm not sure how the conclusion follows from the reasoning. If you know you want to have good EQ/filtering for your subs, and you know you want to have control over your mids, that informs what kind of amp you want. It doesn't necessarily make anything redundant.

As far as the Markbass amp... a "vintage" setting shouldn't have a ton of sub frequency in it anyway, so it shouldn't be redundant... it should complement the goal. As for mids, scooping them, or not, that's a different debate which I think is a lot less clear cut. In short, my opinion is that while I think bass players tend to scoop the mids more than they should, that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it at all. Very mid-heavy tones are good for standing out in a mix, but they aren't good for EVERY mix, and you may just not like the sound. Cutting mids is something that should be done by your own ear, and frankly, what I tend to do is both cut and boost the mids in order to emphasize certain mid frequencies over others.

And, FWIW, having gigged a Fender Rumble for years... it's a functional bass guitar amplifier, but I wouldn't call it ideal by any means, even by your criteria. I never made friends with the EQ options on that amp.

 

[backin82]

I've been asked by sound people on more than one occasion to lower my bass and low mids so that they can manage them from front of house. It's hard to remove those frequencies, but easy to boost them. With a good HPF, you can likely make that change without touching the tone you like, just cut some of the very bottom lows so that the sound system doesn't get overpowered by them. It's the mids that help you stand out in most mixes, anyway.

Why is it hard to remove the low frequencies from your amp? On my amp, I simply turn down the low EQ band until it satisfies FOH or the stage levels.

Also, the "tone you like" is a moving target if you're referencing your amp, and will be influenced by a ton of stuff that changes with each room, band, or PA. Generally speaking, a more mid-present EQ will work better in a full band setting, especially if supported by a big PA system with a bunch of subs.

Also, nobody in the audience probably hears your tone anyway. It's whatever FOH crosses over to the subs, haha.

 

[Wasnex]

Why is it hard to remove the low frequencies from your amp? On my amp, I simply turn down the low EQ band until it satisfies FOH or the stage levels.

This is similar to what I do as well. How well it works can depend on the range of frequencies your bass control impacts and the voicing of the cab. Bass controls can reach fairly high into the mids. So using a bass control to cut your lows may have unintended consequences; such as cutting low mids that you want.

A variable HPF allows you cut determine more precisely where the lows start to roll off. The most common approach is to adjust the frequency of the HPF up to the point where it starts thinning out your sound. Then back the frequency down a hair. This often leads to the perception of fuller and more focused lows. It can also increase your rig's headroom.

Also, nobody in the audience probably hears your tone anyway. It's whatever FOH crosses over to the subs, haha.

Doesn't really change anything for me. I plug my bass into a flat response DI and run the Thru from the DI to my amp. This means when I adjust my amp, it has no effect on the signal I am sending FOH.

Also, my rig serves only as my personal monitor and I set it up so I can hear what I need at the lowest possible volume. I generally had full PA support and worked with really good audio techs. So whatever processing I applied on stage was for my specific needs on stage. The audio techs got an unprocessed signal straight from my bass and applied whatever processing they thought necessary to get the bass to sit right in the mix. I assume they probably applied an HPF, EQ, and compression.

 

[Solipsistik]

Why is it hard to remove the low frequencies from your amp? On my amp, I simply turn down the low EQ band until it satisfies FOH or the stage levels.

Because those controls also colour nearby frequencies, and are likely to change the overall tone of the instrument. A HPF is different in that it tames the frequencies below a cutoff you decide on with a quick and simple adjustment, leaving the overall tone alone.

Also, the "tone you like" is a moving target if you're referencing your amp, and will be influenced by a ton of stuff that changes with each room, band, or PA.

You're unlikely to care, because your amp is usually just a monitor for you, not for the front of house. There's few venues that I have gigged at where I made my amp anything but - at quite a few venues it's in front of me aimed back just like a voice monitor. Sure, it's nice to get the tone you are used to in those situations, but not really required as it's the front of house / sound person that is doing the heavy lifting for what the patrons are going to hear. So it should be. But if you're exporting signal on a XLR post-EQ, that's exactly where a HPF is handy - you can cut the tones you're asked to and leave your amp setup alone.

Having said all that, the Bergantino with all four tone controls flat is pretty much where I want it, so pre-EQ or post-EQ wouldn't matter much to me. I've tried all sorts of combinations and the end result is that I like it flat with adjustments made at the guitar. Not so much with the Mark Bass gear, which has neither a compressor or HPF/LPF controls (I suspect there's some unseen wizardry going on, however). There, I use my SansAmp as a pre-amp, which BTW has a HPF function of sorts as well as a defeat so that you can play lower hertz frequencies than its standard configuration.

Generally speaking, a more mid-present EQ will work better in a full band setting, especially if supported by a big PA system with a bunch of subs.

Don't even need the subs. We only use them in large venues, or if the venue itself has them and a sound person to make the mix work. Subs are overkill at smaller venues, you can find my comments on our experimentation on a sub thread here as well.

Also, nobody in the audience probably hears your tone anyway. It's whatever FOH crosses over to the subs, haha.

Pro tip: a lot (maybe most) of subs don't even work on the frequencies that a bass guitar operates on, and your sound isn't affected by the presence of them. It's very seldom that I hear a sub that meaningfully articulates a bass guitar at all, in fact. Only on very low bass parts will most subs enhance the instrument's output any, if at all. My QSC-KW181 is one of the only subs I've worked with that has any noticeable effect on bass guitar sound.