Less low end when playing live : are high end amps worth it?

[Toby S]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

 

[bulldean]

So a Sansamp has a HPF?

 

[agedhorse]

So a Sansamp has a HPF?

There may be one as part of the internal circuitry, I would expect so on the distortion path at least. This is another good application for a HPF.

 

[Solipsistik]

There may be one as part of the internal circuitry, I would expect so on the distortion path at least. This is another good application for a HPF.

It's not precisely stated as being a HPF, but there is definitely some filtering wizardry going on in the Bass Driver at least, enough so that I can tell that it's trimming the high highs and the low lows by ear, but the fact that it has a button to defeat the "normal" bass filter to allow for a 5-string or 6-string bass tuned lower than a 4-string will allow is the clincher (40hz vs. 80hz). It also lets you set the middle tone for what you consider to be desirable as the "mid" control, but that's not really related as far as I understand (but who knows what the electronic special sauce really does, not me).

They describe it thus: "With the popularity of 5- and 6-string basses going beyond fad status and becoming mainstream, we added a switch to adjust the bass frequency to extend into those lower registers. We also added a mid-range control and a switch to adjust its frequency. The core of the SansAmp Bass Driver and all of its tones remain true to its original design."

I'm not sure that I'm describing it exactly, but it's either a HPF or an extended low frequency adjustment - or both. "Allowing it to extend" sure sounds like a filter to me.

 

[agedhorse]

There can be a lot more going on under the hood than it appears, that's why I mentioned the HPF in the "distortion" (or O/D) signal path, which is a valuable use for a HPF, it can make the driven tones more pleasing and useful.

 

[backin82]

Because those controls also colour nearby frequencies, and are likely to change the overall tone of the instrument. A HPF is different in that it tames the frequencies below a cutoff you decide on with a quick and simple adjustment, leaving the overall tone alone.

You're unlikely to care, because your amp is usually just a monitor for you, not for the front of house. There's few venues that I have gigged at where I made my amp anything but - at quite a few venues it's in front of me aimed back just like a voice monitor. Sure, it's nice to get the tone you are used to in those situations, but not really required as it's the front of house / sound person that is doing the heavy lifting for what the patrons are going to hear. So it should be. But if you're exporting signal on a XLR post-EQ, that's exactly where a HPF is handy - you can cut the tones you're asked to and leave your amp setup alone.

Having said all that, the Bergantino with all four tone controls flat is pretty much where I want it, so pre-EQ or post-EQ wouldn't matter much to me. I've tried all sorts of combinations and the end result is that I like it flat with adjustments made at the guitar. Not so much with the Mark Bass gear, which has neither a compressor or HPF/LPF controls (I suspect there's some unseen wizardry going on, however). There, I use my SansAmp as a pre-amp, which BTW has a HPF function of sorts as well as a defeat so that you can play lower hertz frequencies than its standard configuration.


Don't even need the subs. We only use them in large venues, or if the venue itself has them and a sound person to make the mix work. Subs are overkill at smaller venues, you can find my comments on our experimentation on a sub thread here as well.

Pro tip: a lot (maybe most) of subs don't even work on the frequencies that a bass guitar operates on, and your sound isn't affected by the presence of them. It's very seldom that I hear a sub that meaningfully articulates a bass guitar at all, in fact. Only on very low bass parts will most subs enhance the instrument's output any, if at all. My QSC-KW181 is one of the only subs I've worked with that has any noticeable effect on bass guitar sound.

My main point is that most FOH techs have no clue (or don't care) how to make a bass guitar sound good, and generally push WAY too much into the very low and sub low frequency ranges (where the subs are operating) while ignoring much of what makes the tone what we work hard to achieve. I think it's a lazy approach, but it's what most do. My stage setup seeks to provide me with a tone that inspires me to play well, but from there the FOH crew is likely bastardizing it for the audience. I've stopped worrying too much about that.

I've had exactly one sound guy work with me on getting a proper bass tone through their system. In that case, it was a huge indoor stage at a fairgrounds building, and the tech had to spend some time to get the bass tone properly replicated. It was a great experience, but not common at all.

I understand what an HPF does. I really do. I just find that I can get the same general effect on my gear with some slight EQ tweaks and the bass control on my amp, and am really happy with how it works.

I understand some people prefer HPFs for [insert whatever reason]. I really do. I'm not attempting to establish how everyone else should operate. I'm just sharing my experience in case it helps the OP achieve their goals.

 

[backin82]

Doesn't really change anything for me. I plug my bass into a flat response DI and run the Thru from the DI to my amp. This means when I adjust my amp, it has no effect on the signal I am sending FOH.

Also, my rig serves only as my personal monitor and I set it up so I can hear what I need at the lowest possible volume. I generally had full PA support and worked with really good audio techs. So whatever processing I applied on stage was for my specific needs on stage. The audio techs got an unprocessed signal straight from my bass and applied whatever processing they thought necessary to get the bass to sit right in the mix. I assume they probably applied an HPF, EQ, and compression.

Same for me. I haven't worked with great techs, generally, but my approach is the same regardless. I have my setup that's for me, and send them a direct signal off of my Helix so they can do whatever they want with it.

 

[agedhorse]

My main point is that most FOH techs have no clue (or don't care) how to make a bass guitar sound good, and generally push WAY too much into the very low and sub low frequency ranges (where the subs are operating) while ignoring much of what makes the tone what we work hard to achieve. I think it's a lazy approach, but it's what most do. My stage setup seeks to provide me with a tone that inspires me to play well, but from there the FOH crew is likely bastardizing it for the audience. I've stopped worrying too much about that.

I've had exactly one sound guy work with me on getting a proper bass tone through their system. In that case, it was a huge indoor stage at a fairgrounds building, and the tech had to spend some time to get the bass tone properly replicated. It was a great experience, but not common at all.

I understand what an HPF does. I really do. I just find that I can get the same general effect on my gear with some slight EQ tweaks and the bass control on my amp, and am really happy with how it works.

I understand some people prefer HPFs for [insert whatever reason]. I really do. I'm not attempting to establish how everyone else should operate. I'm just sharing my experience in case it helps the OP achieve their goals.

The obvious question is why you work with that type of sound guy. SOME may struggle, but MOST is a stretch IME. Certainly at the level I worked at.

 

[Bassdirty]

A HPF is a very useful tool.

Sure you can pound a drywall screw in with a hammer but the results are so much better with a proper tool... What we are suggesting is that there are better tools out there to accomplish this, and the HPF is one such tool. Like all tools, learning how to use it helps.

Good point.
The "Hammering in the screw" is the perfect analogy for "use the right tool AND "HOW to use it".

The scenario:
Ya tell the new guy to Use the Screw Gun that's right next to his feet. THEN, come back 20 minutes later and he's using the Screw Gun... as a hammer, to drive the screws in.



T$

 

[backin82]

The obvious question is why you work with that type of sound guy. SOME may struggle, but MOST is a stretch IME. Certainly at the level I worked at.

Obvious question, huh? Is this some veiled attempt at gatekeeping?

Most venues I play at provide a house tech. Many of them aren't great. Some are ok. Only a few are really good. I would imagine most of us on TB who gig regularly are in the same boat. Certainly newer folks and those asking for help in certain scenarios...

I am not a pro or touring musician, and neither are a lot of folks on TB, so we don't have our own sound tech. We play mostly at small and medium sized venues, sometimes opening for larger acts, so we get what we get.

I realize that my commentary is quaint for people at your level, but I'm just trying to share a perspective of a non-pro in case it helped other non-pros.

It's funny that my initial post saying that a person doesn't need an HPF to practically achieve clarity in a mix has garnered such responses, haha. I should have known better than to provide a perspective outside of the HPF echo chamber!

 

[agedhorse]

Obvious question, huh? Is this some veiled attempt at gatekeeping?

Most venues I play at provide a house tech. Many of them aren't great. Some are ok. Only a few are really good. I would imagine most of us on TB who gig regularly are in the same boat. Certainly newer folks and those asking for help in certain scenarios...

I am not a pro or touring musician, and neither are a lot of folks on TB, so we don't have our own sound tech. We play mostly at small and medium sized venues, sometimes opening for larger acts, so we get what we get.

I realize that my commentary is quaint for people at your level, but I'm just trying to share a perspective of a non-pro in case it helped other non-pros.

When you start denigrating MOST sound guys as "having no clue or not caring", and since that was my profession for almost 40 years, the obvious conclusion is that you might not be experiencing the better sound guys. Better gigs generally have better working conditions, which is why I posted what I did, and at the higher levels, MOST sound engineers are really quite good to excellent (IME).

 

[backin82]

When you start denigrating MOST sound guys as "having no clue or not caring", and since that was my profession for almost 40 years, the obvious conclusion is that you might not be experiencing the better sound guys. Better gigs generally have better working conditions, which is why I posted what I did, and at the higher levels, MOST sound engineers are really quite good to excellent (IME).

I agree. I've worked with some really, really good ones on our better gigs. I didn't mean to denigrate the profession as a whole. I've probably just played more lower level gigs than higher level ones.

I was also trying to distill too many separate topics into one statement.

Generally speaking, I was trying to say that there's a law of diminishing returns on chasing tone (including playing live), and for a variety of reasons, I think one can achieve pretty good results that are acceptable for a live sound situation without spending countless hours or dollars crafting something that's likely unrepeatable due to a large number of factors (including the FOH team).

I just thought it may help the OP navigate their situation and find a suitable compromise as they seek to configure their gear based on my experience going through the same process.

I'll also try to note your previous profession for future potential denigration of sound guys ;-)

 

[agedhorse]

Then for you the obvious (to me) is that if it doesn't make enough of a difference to you, then don't chase tone, leave that task for others to do.

 

[Solipsistik]

so they can do whatever they want with it.

Can't sweat it much. You can't hear what it sounds like from the stage, and they're going to do what they want anyway.

I must be lucky, I have worked with lots of good sound folk, and when we're at a place that we know isn't going to have one, we take Raldy. Raldy's done sound on the road for the likes of the Mahones, the Headstones, the Tragically Hip, et al. We throw him 20% cut and a few drinks. It gives him something to do when he's not on the road.

 

[webmonster]

My thought for the OP's question:
If you prioritise having a standalone HPF over a 'fancy' amp, then you have an HPF you can use with any backline if required.

The amp I use most often for professional gigs is a Rumble 40 with an upright bass.
Fdeck's HPF3 is extremely handy for these gigs, and also bass guitar rock gigs using old valve amps.

 

[backin82]

Here was my EQ for Saturday night's gig. Worked great! (note: contour switch is disengaged)

 

[pepj]

Depends what you mean by sound guys.
Turns up with a few boxes etc or works/freelances for a proper sound co and work with top kit.

But....you'll pay for the difference, for sure.

 

[Toby S]

Well it’s been a few months since my original post. Thankyou to everyone for responding. It’s been a real education. I did buy a sineffect hpf (made in Glasgow). Simple to use and yes it does help. It’s on my peddle board. I would get an origin Di peddle but the xlr output isn’t effected by the hpf on the peddle which is such a shame. Anyway My sound guy was really pleased I had bought an hpf . Interestingly it is really effective on an acoustic guitar. I wish my singer would get one for when he indulges in his acoustic bit of the gig
Well thanks again everyone. Time to start another thread .

 

[pepj]

For what its worth, I had cause to reduce my bass control to zero on the dial and zero on the bass.
I think my active eq circuit is very good but of late I basically fun V and V for sound bias..P Bass spoof or Jaco.. and use the T to cut.

My amp has low and hi mid on 9..and treble around 12.
Taste control is always the huge variable but I'm going for 60's Fender..and getting close.

So not needing any filters.
I can run the amp like this because I've got 900w into 4..even though the cabs are only rated 500w in total.

Works great, imv

 

[Jay Corwin]

I've heard plenty of guys slaying it on cheap amps. In fact, I have on occasion probably slayed it in on cheap backlines. If you can play and know how to fiddle with the knobs, you can make almost anything work provided it has the headroom.