Less low end when playing live : are high end amps worth it?

[Toby S]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

 

[JazznFunk]

I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

Not necessarily. You need to get out in the room, at playing volume, to hear what the low end is doing from your amp before you start ANY major EQ adjustments - mids and low end especially. Sometimes what sounds too boomy on stage is actually just right out front. What sounds too mid-focused on stage can actually be just right out front. Get a long cable or a wireless and get out well in front of your rig at different points. It's the only way to know for sure. You must also spend time learning what each frequency band truly sounds and feels like. It's 'ear training' in a different way, from an engineering standpoint. Once you do that, you can zero in on the specific problem area much more quickly.

I learned that lesson (again) a few weeks ago in a space where I was told to turn up more for the room, but it was really boomy and loud (to me) on stage already. I was hesitant because I HATE playing too loud. It was a product of the walls and stage area vs how it projected into the room. Rear-ported vs front ported cabs make a difference too. I play the MarkBass Traveler 2x10 cab as well. I was playing upright bass and had a long cable (20 feet or so) and got way out in the room to evaluate the tone and adjusted from there. It's always a compromise vs what you want to hear on stage vs what is right out front.... and being right on top of your amp never helps.

 

[Sicpater]

Mids all day. I play a 5 string NT Warwick Thumb through an Aguilar Tone Hammer 700 with a GK 410 and GK 115 full stack. Virtually unlimited mid-range options with a full mid range sweep, boost and cut on the Aggie. The Thumb is naturally mid favored anyway and so is the 410. I find keeping the bass EQ on the amp cut just a bit works perfectly.

Like others have said, depends on the venue. Found this out when we were backed up against a brick wall. Bass was bouncing everywhere and it sounded terrible, had to cut some lows as a result. Mids definitely cut through the mix.

 

[tvbop]

If Im on stage without FOH I want to hear a thin mid heavy but loud tone behind me then out in the room it'll be stripping the tiles off the walls. So yes too much bass on stage will sound soft and muddy in the room. Even with FOH its always best to send a lean signal.

 

[Clark W]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

I use a Mesa D-800+ with a two tube pre amp in front of it. Or I use the new Mesa 800D. Cabs are two Markbass Traveler 151P and two Traveler 102P.

The real beauty of the 800D amp. You can crank the amp's HPF up to 4 or 5 and crank the bass on up to about 7. What you are doing is making the bass and HPF fight each other for dominance, the result, is a lot of low mid punch without the low bass boominess.

The other consideration is what kind of music are you playing?

There's a lot of great amps out there, but the Mesa heads have a HPF built in and they are designed to work a certain way within the amp that is different than running a HPF pedal in front of an amp.

If you buy an amp without an HPF pedal, grab a HPF pedal like the Broughton variable HPF which sells for 95 bucks before taxes and shipping. It will make a lot of difference in your sound for sure. Just use your ear, turn the pedal up and you will hear your sound start to tighten up, go too far it will sound thin and you just back off of it until your back to tight but full. The Traveler 151P cabs I have really come alive with one. The 102P cabs are more mid forward than the 151P cabs so you don't hear it as much with those.

 

[InhumanResource]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

Does it sound good? I’ve played through expensive amps that I’ve hated and crappy blue trim peavey keyboard amps that worked out pretty well. If you’re happy with what you’re getting on stage and FOH sounds good too then do whatever you want.

If it doesn’t sound good then make some changes.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Articles and TB posts can point you to important considerations, but base your decisions on what you actually hear, not what you read or saw from others in other experiences and circumstances. Every one who says " do X to achieve sound Y " Is relating specific situations that happened to them and what fixed it for their ear , gear, and situation. The most important gear is your ears and experience.

Any reasonable quality gear can get you 85-90 % close to the tone you want, and solve any EQ problems you have. in away that will work for your situation. The real fix is training your ears in what to listen for an knowing what impact your tweaks can make. I think this Bass Buzz clip is one of the better guides I have seen.


Also keep in mind that if you have a (decent) FOH sound guy , your only problem should be how you sound onstage to yourself, and passing the FOH guy a signal they cna work with.

Pretty much

Over time and experience you can learn these things or listen to this for a starting point. I like the amp I have but if I'm using some backline I can get a reasonable tone to get through a set. I had used graphic EQ’s in my middle years that got me hip to what he is saying 31 bands at one point that are really not needed for bass.

Later on I also enjoyed the GK 1001 RB because its EQ section is the opposite of most amps. It starts with the high frequencies and goes to the lows. I would dial in the highs and mids first, then add bass to taste to fit the environment.

Now I can fish around on an EQ and get whatever tones I need to fit the music or band Im playing with, like in the video.

The old amp and nthe newer one on top.

I do have this ol’ fella that I still use around the house to relive my old biamp daze. Carvin BX 1500

Unlike some around here, these are the extent of my working bass amp collection

 

[BrianVengeance]

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.

Yes, there isn’t a lot of room in the low frequencies between you and the kick drum. Low frequency waves take a lot energy to reproduce and can fill a room with mud, so a high pass filter is your best friend.

There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

Drive will help the bass settle into a mix a bit more, not necessarily cut through. A little extra sizzle up top can definitely help give you more definition, but you’ll want to steer clear of adding too much gain to the low end otherwise you’ll lose low end definition. Drives with blends or crossovers can help here immensely.

 

[J Wilson]

Deep end, almost incoherent rumble is not cost dependent, I could get a cheap, crappy amp to do it just as well as a sophisticated, expensive setup.

You have to be able to 'read' the room. Some places are just hopeless, some places you plus the PA can put too much in, there's all kinds of ways this can go sideways, and why even highly-paid FOH engineer/mixers running stadium systems have to fight this.

Often you may wind up with a tone setting that you're not crazy about, but one that will work in that room at that time. And that has nothing to do with how low- or high-end your rig is, and this is way more driven by the cabinet(s) you're using than the amp itself.

 

[agedhorse]

First, be aware that there are a lot of bad articles and videos out there that promote ridiculous advice. Be sure that you are getting good information first.

Each room will be different, therefore the flow frequency performance in each room will be different. What’s good advice for one room may not be good advice for another.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

With my Eden gear, even though some of them has amazingly versatile EQ sections, I find I run it flat and just boost the low mids up to 1:30 at 250Hz when playing live, or 500Hz when doing any recording with my "82 Jazz Bass. I have 3 Eden amps plus Eden's WTDI pedal, which has an Eden WT Preamp in a DI pedal.

With my DNA-800 amp by DNA I run that same boost on the low mids plus I boost the bass up to 1 o'clock to get the same sound out of my DNA amp that I get out of my Eden amps. David Nordschow designed all of them and the DNA amps use a shelving control Bass EQ for 35Hz and below, whereas his Eden amps have that shelving control set at 30Hz. That little touch of bass boost on his DNA amps puts it right where I like it.

Sound is clean, clear, articulate and full on all of them. Eden is known for its warmth of sound which they originally got by using a 12ax7 or 7025 tube in the preamp. It's not adjustable and it operates within very specific parameters to get that warmth. My first Eden amp was their Nemesis RS400 (400-watts rms into 4Ω). The Nemesis line was their mid-price line and had an all FET front end instead of the hybrid Solid State with a tube in the preamp. I used that amp for 2-years before I bought my WT500/800 amp (400-watts per channel into 4Ω or 800-watts rms bridged into 8Ω), which has the tube. The sounds between the two were very similar but the WT500/800 had the warmth of that tube that their Nemesis amp didn't have. So I like that warmth.

Eden put out a totally solid state amp in their WT series (WT330/390/405) without the tube in the preamp that still had that warmth because they used a "Golden Ear" Chip (THAT-4103) in the preamp that among other things emulates tube warmth wonderfully well. I can't tell the difference in sound between my WT500/800 amp with the tube in the preamp and my WTDI pedal or my Eden TN-226 class D amp, both of which use that golden Ear chip in the preamp. David's DNA-800 doesn't sound quite as warm to me as his Eden amps but its not a sterile sound either. They are close enough that I'll use whichever one is best for the venue.

In my experience, that little boost to the low-mids makes a HUGE difference in the sound. When you're playing in a group that's because the bass owns the Low Mids in the mix. Guitars and keys own the high-mids and highs and the kick drum owns the lowest sounds. But the bass lives in the low-mids. If you boost your low mids a little it will give you both presence and definition in the mix without you needing to drown everyone else out to be heard. Anywhere between about 250Hz and 500Hz will give that presence and definition and it doesn't take a lot of boost. If you boost it too much, your sound will honk at you. If that happens just slowly turn it down until the honk goes away.

Below is an iPhone recording of the J. Badder Band from about 2018 where you can hear the difference that small boost makes. We were a 5-pc. group with bass, drums, keys, and 2 guitars and we're doing the old Jefferson Airplane song "Somebody to Love" I'm playing through my WT500/800 amp with two Eden EX-112 cabs. The auto-compressor is bypassed and the Enhance (shape) is off. Everything else is set flat except for that boost to 1:30 at 250Hz. The girl singing this is Joan, and she's our Keys player on the far side of the group. You can sometimes get a short glimpse of her between my head and Jim's back.This is not a great recording because its an iPhone from back then, but you'll notice that you can hear every single note I play quite easily without drowning everyone out. That's because of that little boost in the low-mids.

 

[H Nighttrain]

The responses here almost exclusively address EQ, answering the title "Less low end when playing live : are high end amps worth it?"

I think the OP might get more useful responses in his quest for a suitable rig had he asked his question a bit differently: "Besides EQ, what makes high-end amps worth it?"

Tight or looser low end, richness of harmonic content, crisp or smooth highs, response quickness (or sponginess), dynamic response, how the notes bloom (or not), damping, protection, robustness, features, form factor... there are lots of things that make a player happy with an amp, and the relative ability to control EQ is a big factor, but just one thing to consider.

​

 

[JazznFunk]

The responses here almost exclusively address EQ, answering the title "Less low end when playing live : are high end amps worth it?"

I think the OP might get more useful responses in his quest for a suitable rig had he asked his question a bit differently: "Besides EQ, what makes high-end amps worth it?"

Tight or looser low end, richness of harmonic content, crisp or smooth highs, response quickness (or sponginess), dynamic response, how the notes bloom (or not), damping, protection, robustness, features, form factor... there are lots of things that make a player happy with an amp, and the relative ability to control EQ is a big factor, but just one thing to consider.

It might be even more helpful to the discussion if the OP had defined what 'high end' means in their view. EQ and how an amp/cab combo presents that 'sonic palette' is definitely going to vary across different brands and price points.

 

[dougjwray]

I just want to speak in defense of the humble Rumble...
I've found that it *is* possible to get clarity and mids out of them. I have two heads, the 200 v3 and the 500 v3. Both heads have been discontinued for years, but they contain the same guts as the popular combo versions.
To throw off the "blanket": have the gain at zero, and use the "flat" EQ settings-- 10:00, 2:00, 2:00 and 10:00. No buttons engaged. Also, the drive drains some low end out, and drive can be set low enough so that there is no audible distortion; it will still diminish some lows.
I've found that the 200 (being less powerful) has less "girth" than the 500. Its basic sound is middier. I prefer it for troublesome rooms. I always use the 500 outdoors.
Personally, I really like these amps.
Now back to the thread...

 

[bulldean]

Are HPFs the new Labubu? Did Jaco use one?

 

[agedhorse]

Are HPFs the new Labubu? Did Jaco use one?

HPF's have been used in pro audio for at least 50 years, I wouldn't call them new.

I have been designing them into bass amps for about 30 years, the benefits are undeniable for most of those who questioned the concept (usually because they didn't understand why they are so useful).

 

[pyrat56host]

I railed against the Fender Rumble for a long while...but I kept seeing bass players w/ all different kinds of groups sounding absolutely GREAT playing them in many different environs (small clubs, outdoors, big boomy rooms). I caved and got the Rumble 800c (w/210 ext cab) and I gotta say...it's EASY. Easy to set different EQ, easy to cart in and out, easy for the sound folks...EASY! So, what's not to love? I get that there are players that don't care for them or won't use them (I was one) but I gotta say...after years of trying every kind of bass rig...I am so glad I quit trying so hard.

 

[brianrost]

With bass guitar, I’m mostly set and forget on the amp, tweaking only if needed. The bass’s onboard tone (passive on all but one which is 2 band boost/cut), where I position my right hand (closer to the neck is deeper, closer to the bridge is brighter) and how much of the finger is in contact with the string...tip only, tip to first joint or the side of the finger from tip to second joint like an upright…does the rest.

Upright is much fussier, so I’m working with a HPF and three band EQ and it is different every time, even in the same room! I do have a starting point of all EQ flat and the HPF set to where the E string starts to disappear, then I tweak from there.

 

[Toby S]

Wow
What an education. Thank you everybody.

I think I will invest in a hpf pedal.
Has anyone had any experience with a Glasgow based company called sine effect?
I’m in London so kind of makes sense but Broughton seems to be a safe choice.

 

[Zbysek]

Good decision.

Sine effects has a good reputation here on TB. I have none of their pedals though…

 

[backin82]

Why should it? A manipulation of the low end of the frequency spectrum is exactly that. The rest is untouched by that statement.





A change in the EQ should happen for a reason.
There are two possible motivations behind: 1. You like it better that way 2. You're looking to solve a problem.

When you run a mid scooped sound because it sounds great, and you're playing in a setting that leaves a lot of sonic room for the bass, then that's fine.
When you care for big, dubby lows and boost them like mad, and you get a big dubby sound, then that's fine.

When you're playing a small room and the band's low end sounds bloated and muddy, then it's time to cut lows.
When you're playing in a busy mix and your scooped tone makes the bass nearly inaudible, then it's time to turn up the mids.

Almost every bassist that starts out with using EQs, preamps, pedals and such does the same thing: Crafting "the perfect tone" in the comfort of their living room. When you're playing alone, you tend to cut mids because they sound boxy and honky, and then you boost bass because it sounds rich and full and then you add treble because it makes it shiny and sparkly and it's the most beautiful solo tone - but completely useless in a mix.
The same goes for many drive pedals. There are so many pedals that sound rich and cultivated and give your tone the last polish when you're using them at home, but the harmonics they add completely disappear between the guitars and cymbals.

On the other hand, many bass tracks that sound great in a mix sound less polished when you listen to the solo bass track.

I've learned that lesson the hard way: I went to band practice - arrived first, got into the room, set up my gear, hooked up my amp, played a bit and thought "huh, that sounds weird." It was way too honky and mid forward. I reset the EQ, and made it sound beautiful. The other guys arrived and we started playing.
First thing I realized was that the low bass sounds too muddy now, so I cut that a little. Next thing I noticed was that my bass was not represented in the mix at all. It was loud enough, but I could not hear it properly. So I twisted some knobs and towards the end of the rehearsal, my bass sat perfectly well balanced in the mix and I could really lean into it and play properly.
Next rehearsal, I arrived early, plugged in, played a bit and thought "huh, that sounds weird." It was way too honky and mid forward.

I'm not comfortable admitting how many rounds of that cycle I had to run through before I realized what was going on.

Great post. On the GK MB212 (and many other amps), there's a contour switch that achieves the same results (broadly speaking). I use that as a "bedroom tone" and a "full band tone" button, haha.