Less low end when playing live : are high end amps worth it?

[Toby S]

I’m on the never ending journey of finding the best rig for live (up to 100 people) bass amp/cab/combo.
I’ve had orange terror, Markbass, tc electronic.
The tc electronic had a tuner built in: so so handy, and a few nice effects.
The Markbass vintage had 2 nice settings and a separate line out volume control
The orange feels sturdy and looks great and it’s nice to know it’s got valves. My drummer seems impressed while clearly not having any idea what that means.
Cabs : Markbass traveller and orange obc112.
If I had to choose I could only say that the tc is slightly boxy . The orange slightly warmer in a cosy small room compared to the Markbass. The Markbass and orange in a larger room: pretty identical . I’ve never been a fan of the yellow and rat fur of the Markbass.

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

 

[gtirard]

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant?

It's true, but Ideally you would use a High Pass Filter, which most amps don't have (and not yours), in order to remove the frequencies that are so low that we can hardly hear them, they only bring mud.

Mesa Subway amps all have a HPF filter, I know they are expensive, but can buy a HPF pedal too. Why don't we find HPF on more amps is a mistery. Once you've removed the mud with the HPF you can use the EQ controls in order to adjust your tone to your liking.

So I don't think a lot of bass amp settings are redundant, on the opposite, more amps should add HPF filters.

My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

I don't understand what "cut through the mix" means exactly, but it's true that setting just a touch of distortion adds a nice texture, it doesn't sound dirty in the mix, just more textured.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

I think on the opposite, the Fender Rumble have a very strong mid-scoop, it seems to be the opposite of what you're truying to achieve.

If I were you, I would:
- Start with a HFP pedal and see if it solves your problem alone.
- If not I would buy a Quilter Bass Block v803, it's an incredibly good amp but it's not too expensive.
- Or a Mesa Subway D350 (it has a HPF filter, so you wouldn't need the pedal)
- I don't like the looks of the Markbass cabs either, but they sound really good for their price. You could find better sounding cabs (that also look better), but it would cost a lot more IME.

 

[Ggaa]

I use a HPF every gig, bass knob usually at noon(Magellan 800). I use the parametric mid controls for stage tone more than the other knobs. Also have a Rumble 800 head for occasional backup, no para but I can get what I need. Cabs are GK MBE 115s(one or both).

 

[MCS4]

I don't see the connection between "use less low bass live" and "high end amps aren't worth it." High end amps aren't specifically prized for their low sub bass frequencies, as far as I have ever seen. To the contrary, as already noted, some amps and preamps (often higher end) have integrated HPFs to clean up the lowest sub frequencies that can be more trouble than they are worth in a live setting. There are a ton of things that go into an amp's quality that have nothing to do with sub bass response.

Also, you generally should avoid taking any EQ-related commentary as gospel. It is true that many bass players prize midrange for cutting through a live mix, and it is often recommend that you avoid a "scooped mid" sound, but that does not mean it is always necessary to boost mids or that it is never effective to cut some mids. It all depends on your gear and playing situation. Either way, having more EQ flexibility on the amp is almost never going to be a bad thing.

 

[Jason Hollar]

Yes to the HPF - one of the most underrated and important gizmos in the tool kit.

You’ll find that an HPF cuts the “bad” lows allowing you to continue to boost the “good” lows from your amp(s).

I’ve used an original Italian MarkBass 1x12 combo for years and it’s a solid amp. I don’t have any experience with the combos you use - except the rumble. There seems to be a loyal majority around here who swear by the rumbles. I used most of their offerings for like two years at a music school. Yes they are light, loud, and cheap. But I personally think they sound pretty awful. YMMV.

I’ve solved this conundrum by investing in one of the newer GK legacy 1x12 combos. Brilliant tone. Tons of power. Works most any room or outdoor gig. Handles low B as well as upright like a champ.

Beautiful thing is the GK has a built-in OD channel which can be used as a crunchy gain effect or subtly as a mid-boost that helps cut through in certain boomy rooms.

Good luck!

 

[Nuisance]

There's no definitive.

You'll want to cut the bass frequencies you can't hear to keep from overworking your amp and speakers and creating a wall of sonic mud. This is what a high pass filter does. Cutting bass with the bass knob MAY leave you with an anemic sound, but you may need to do this depending on the acoustics of the venue you are in.

You'll also want a slight notch at ~300 hertz to reduce mud as well, but this is usually done for you at the board.

For high pass filter, turn it up until you hear it affecting your tone, then bring it up a tiny bit more as a starting point. You can then add a little bass (yes add) to bring in what you lost from the HPF without adding sub frequency mud. This should give you a nice beefy tone that works well in many situations.

Edit: Never heard a Markabass cabinet I cared for (the amps are fine). Also, if you add some drive, consider adding only a tiny bit to enhance the harmonic content of your mids. To do that bring the drive up until you barely hear it, then back it off a bit. Doing so will also give you some mild compression, helping smooth out the peaks a little.

 

[jthisdell]

You can use a hpf and turn up the bass, counterintuitive but that is really the beauty of an hpf. IMHO the cab is most important, put your money there first after an hpf such has the Broughton

 

[2saddleslab]

HPF 24/7. The most essential tool a bass player could ever employ.

 

[fdeck]

Indoor spaces with poor acoustics tend to emphasize the lowest frequencies. Cutting the lows is just to compensate for that effect.

It's a valid point that if you're always playing indoors, and always cutting the lows, then you might as well have started out with less lows in the first place. The speaker could be smaller. Whether it's worth swapping gear for this reason is a matter of personal preference.

 

[iqi616]

A lot depends on the room. My approach is to get the mids and highs sounding right with the band and then add/reduce bass to taste depending on how boomy the room is.

 

[Wasnex]

Some people subscribe to what I call a set-it-and-forget-it approach. This doesn't usually work for me. Instead, I often find it useful to adjust my amp when I set it up in a new location. If you're happy using set-it-and-forget-it with a Rumble, in some ways I might consider you lucky. However, that doesn't necessarily mean I would necessarily hold your sound up as an example of great tone.

IMHO, room acoustics are a huge factor that effects tone. Acoustics can vary widely from one location to the next. Also the way your sound interacts with a room's acoustics can vary considerably depending upon where the rig is set up and how it is aimed. Room acoustics also impact how you perceive the sound of other instrument. Although I try to dial in a usable tone before sound check, I often find it necessary to further lean out the lows and boost the mids once we start playing.

While I think gear matters, IMHO it doesn't usually matter as much as we would like. The worse the room acoustics, the less control you typically have. Even a great rig can sound bad in poor room acoustics Sometimes the best thing you can do is to lower your expectations, turn down, and put on a happy face.

 

[Gervais Cote]

I went through a similar quest and ended with a Traynor SB 500H and two GK Neo IV 112 cabs. For some special events, I use my Hartke LH 500 to bring more flavor and roundness to the sound.

The low notes are very deep with this setup but always remain articulate no matter if I play at low volume or very loud in a live situation. No need for a high or low filter, all knobs set at noon.

In the past, I had and I played with many different amps/cabs including the Ampeg 8x10 fridge down to a Markbass with a single 12" Kevlar driver and my actual setup is the perfect balance for my rock and blues songs.

If ever I would go to a combo, that would be the GK 115 as it’s also very articulate for a 15" and has a good presence in the mids. My Ampeg RB 112 also perform well but not loud enough when a drummer is involved.

 

[el murdoque]

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant?

Why should it? A manipulation of the low end of the frequency spectrum is exactly that. The rest is untouched by that statement.

My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight
(and they look better IMO).

Any thoughts and knowledge gratefully received.

A change in the EQ should happen for a reason.
There are two possible motivations behind: 1. You like it better that way 2. You're looking to solve a problem.

When you run a mid scooped sound because it sounds great, and you're playing in a setting that leaves a lot of sonic room for the bass, then that's fine.
When you care for big, dubby lows and boost them like mad, and you get a big dubby sound, then that's fine.

When you're playing a small room and the band's low end sounds bloated and muddy, then it's time to cut lows.
When you're playing in a busy mix and your scooped tone makes the bass nearly inaudible, then it's time to turn up the mids.

Almost every bassist that starts out with using EQs, preamps, pedals and such does the same thing: Crafting "the perfect tone" in the comfort of their living room. When you're playing alone, you tend to cut mids because they sound boxy and honky, and then you boost bass because it sounds rich and full and then you add treble because it makes it shiny and sparkly and it's the most beautiful solo tone - but completely useless in a mix.
The same goes for many drive pedals. There are so many pedals that sound rich and cultivated and give your tone the last polish when you're using them at home, but the harmonics they add completely disappear between the guitars and cymbals.

On the other hand, many bass tracks that sound great in a mix sound less polished when you listen to the solo bass track.

I've learned that lesson the hard way: I went to band practice - arrived first, got into the room, set up my gear, hooked up my amp, played a bit and thought "huh, that sounds weird." It was way too honky and mid forward. I reset the EQ, and made it sound beautiful. The other guys arrived and we started playing.
First thing I realized was that the low bass sounds too muddy now, so I cut that a little. Next thing I noticed was that my bass was not represented in the mix at all. It was loud enough, but I could not hear it properly. So I twisted some knobs and towards the end of the rehearsal, my bass sat perfectly well balanced in the mix and I could really lean into it and play properly.
Next rehearsal, I arrived early, plugged in, played a bit and thought "huh, that sounds weird." It was way too honky and mid forward.

I'm not comfortable admitting how many rounds of that cycle I had to run through before I realized what was going on.

 

[mambo4]

. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
... the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

Articles and TB posts can point you to important considerations, but base your decisions on what you actually hear, not what you read or saw from others in other experiences and circumstances. Every one who says " do X to achieve sound Y " Is relating specific situations that happened to them and what fixed it for their ear , gear, and situation. The most important gear is your ears and experience.

Any reasonable quality gear can get you 85-90 % close to the tone you want, and solve any EQ problems you have. in away that will work for your situation. The real fix is training your ears in what to listen for an knowing what impact your tweaks can make. I think this Bass Buzz clip is one of the better guides I have seen.


Also keep in mind that if you have a (decent) FOH sound guy , your only problem should be how you sound onstage to yourself, and passing the FOH guy a signal they cna work with.

 

[mastodon88]

I just appreciate how you're actually listening to the rest of the band and the room rather than just your bass.

Few points: distortion is definitely your friend when it comes to cutting through, though you can sacrifice low end with it so be careful and tasteful.

The fender rumble series (newer editions) sound awesome. Plain and simple.

A good sound guy can get the bass to cut through without the bassist having to change his/her tone.

On the other hand, many bass tracks that sound great in a mix sound less polished when you listen to the solo bass track.

This^

 

[iqi616]

If you're happy using set-it-and-forget-it with a Rumble, in some ways I might consider you lucky.

I'm actually looking forward to gigging my new Rumble because the 4-band EQ seems nicely adjustable.

My Trace Elliot has a zillion-band graphic EQ and the balance control of the two-band compressor is the only easily tweakable control once the gig gets started. The faders on the graphic have too much range meaning I have to kneel down and fiddle plus there are too many of them. I used to think the more EQ bands the better but not any more!

 

[LowTorque]

I cannot say I am immune to it, but I try really hard not to listen to what others say what I should do, but rather listen to the band and how my sound fits in. 80% of the time I play a p bass, 20% a stingray.

My amps are a Rumble 800c and a Markbass 121 Mini combo. The music I play is classic rock and country. On stage, I much prefer the rumble. On both amps the bass is set between 2 and 3 o'clock, treble slightly dialed back. Where it differs is the mids. The Rumble is neutral or slightly boosted, whereas the MB I dial out the mids a lot. Most of the time I use a cheap Zoom B1 four because it is easy to use fits in my gig bag and sounds good enough.

Nothing is high end, nothing I own is expensive but everything is easy to carry and easy and cheap to replace. I don't have to worry when I play in a dive, that somebody would snatch or damage my expensive instrument. I could do better, when it comes to sound, but we are talking maybe 5-10% and a better multi effects pedal would cover most of that improvement (currently leearning my HX Stomp).

What I am trying to say is, people need to stop listening to what is "hip" or to what somebody says on YouTube. Learn your equipment, learn to listen what each knob does, and learn what differenet techniques do to your sound. Find your voice and be proud of it. There is already enough fretboard w@ankers out there.

 

[FullumMusic]

But anyway. To my question. I’ve seen videos and read articles which all say when playing live indoors , turn the low bass down.
Well, if that’s true , does that not make a lot of bass amp settings redundant? My vintage sound on the Markbass can probably go , and the scooped setting is probably taking out mids that , according to many articles, I should have.
There also seems to be an argument for a little bit of drive helping the bass cut through the mix without actually sounding overdriven.

All this makes me wonder whether I shouldn’t just get a fender rumble and be happy with that, after all if I’m cutting it the low bass why not go cost effective and lightweight

This really has nothing to do with high-end amps. This has to do with the room you're in and adapting to it.

First, just saying "cut the lows when indoors" as a rule... it's not a rule. Anyone who is telling you to just do that as a rule of thumb isn't giving you the right information. Or at least they're oversimplifying a complex situation. And this is coming from my background in music production and audio engineering.

Cutting the lows can help... if it's necessary. It's only helpful if the venue is too boomy in the low end, usually because the size and shape of the space cause low end buildup. (Standing waves; flat reflective surfaces at distances sympathetic to low end wavelengths; etc.)

If you just cut the low end indoors without listening to how it sounds first, you're just getting rid of low end for no reason.

The reason any amp, low-end, mid-range, or high-end has any features on it is to adjust for different audio situations. When playing live, the room is going to have a lot to do with that. So is the instrumentation of the rest of the band the frequency curves of their instruments.

---

The other thing my audio-engineering brain cringes over every time i hear is "mids cut through the mix." They only do that if there's room in the mids. If everyone is trying to cut through the mix and has their mids boosted, there's no room in the mids. When you're in one of those situations where it's simultaneously too loud and yet you can't hear or discern anything? That's because the mids are too crowded.

There's no inherent "cuts through the mix" property of any bass or amp. What makes instruments "cut through a mix" is having a good mix, where all the instruments have enough space where their frequency curves are most prominent. And probably more importantly, to get that good mix is to have thought about the instrumentation and arrangement during the composition process.

Nobody will say Marcus Miller doesn't cut through the mix, and he's king of scooped. But he cuts because they make sure to leave space for where the bass lives, and fill in the other instruments around that. Reggae bass is heavy lows, not too much mids or highs. Hip Hop subs are all lows, no mids. Nobody complains they can't hear the bass in Reggae or Hip Hop mixes.

Setting your amp's EQ the way you like it is great for at home. The second we get into playing with a band at a venue, ideally, everyone should be utilizing their EQ to adjust for the room & mix.

Whether or not a high-end amp is worth it never comes into play in any of this. "Worth it" is such a nebulous concept in music and music gear.

 

[Thumpin6string]

Using an HPF pedal with your current setups should get you where you want to be. Cutting the sub harmonics will give you a much fuller bass sound. Bumping up even the low mids will help "cut through the mix". With my Eden WT550 with an HPF, it has no problem being heard and has enough bass to shake a building off its foundation. Also, no distortion needed.

 

[Audiomicrowave]

I've purchased the Quilter Bass Block v803 and paired it with an Ampeg 2x10 (SVT-210AV) for our outdoor gigs (with PA support) and it sounds great. In addition, I added a Broughton Always On High Pass Filter to the pedalboard and it really tightened up the sound. We recently played a small indoor gig, and I used a Trace 1x10 cabinet to reduce the boominess even more and it worked perfectly.

I run the eq pretty flat on the head, and manage my eq setting with my preamp pedal (MXR M-81).

Best of luck in your search!

B