Lesson Learned For Future Sound Checks

[groove pump]

My take on this issue is that the soundman will probably compress the signal I send to him however he (she?) sees fit. I'm not much of a slapper, etc. and my technique isn't so rough that I find any need for a compressor for the sound coming out of my amp on stage.

I recognize a responsibility to manage my levels though. If I use an effect such as a Q-Tron, which has no output or level control, that thing can get way loud when I engage it compared with my clean tone. My guitar player actually has this issue with his effects to a greater degree.

I'm spoiled because I have a two channel preamp (Ampeg BSP) that allows me to set the individual levels and even blend the two channels together. Without the gain up too high on the O/D channel, I can just put the Q-Tron in that channel's effects loop and set the level for good sound.

If I didn't have that preamp, I'd probably use a Boss LS-2 pedal. It allows a user to select one of two loops through the pedal, or both, and also set the levels of those loops. For any effect with no output or level control knob, this pedal can be an ideal solution to the "levelling issue".

 

[scotch]

GREAT advice, Gearhead!

I always try to give the foh engineer a 'heads-up' before soundcheck (or if there isn't a real soundcheck, at least before the show) about any tonal changes I'll be making. It helps to foster a working relationship with the mixer-du-jour.

Honestly though, the longer I've been using effects & developing (what I think is) better taste and style employing them - I've really got them dialed in closer to unity volume without compression compensation. Of course there are times when something is supposed to be a bit louder, but that generally correlates with the entire band getting louder as well!

Still, great advice! The foh should definitely appreciate the 'heads-up'! (It doesn't hurt to buy 'em a drink, either! )

 

[Gearhead17]

Did you communicate this to the sound guy prior to the show or at least did you include your effects during the sound check? I dont use effects often but when I do my main concern is to keep them at line level, its not hard to understand that effects will boost your signal to crazy levels if not handle with care.

Nope. I should have turned it on when it was my turn.

 

[Muzoid]

I'm sure the soundguy wasn't totally pissed, but I bet it kinda took him by surprise.

Live and learn.

Could be worse.....it could be an unexpected chainsaw solo

Jackyl - Lumberjack Song

Excellent Chainsaw Tone!....must be a vintage.

 

[Gearhead17]

2 - Was the difference in volume between clean & distorted that different on stage? If not, maybe sending a single signal from the line out of your amp would be easier/cleaner.
Whatever else you do to your signal chain that tames the volume difference on stage would also be done to the FOH signal.

I would give the sound man a signal off of my head if it would work better, but I generally have a steep decline in tone after 80hz. I use my rig to cut through just enough on stage and it's a different tone every night. I don't think it would be helpful for FOH duties - that is why I give them a direct signal with no boosting off of the bass. I usually tweak my tone several times on stage until I can hear myself well, then I leave it alone.

The dirty channel was louder than the clean, but through my initial checks, the difference did not seem that great. It usually helps if there is a slight to moderate boost on the dirty channel anyway, my guitar players are using more distortion on those tunes. The extra oomph allows me to cut through on stage.

 

[SMILEYSIXX]

Just a thought, but shouldn't a sound guy be handling your sound instead of giving you that responsibility? I understand the musician has some responsibility, but a sound guy, when detecting a problem, should handle it instead of pissing and moaning about it to someone else, right?

 

[Johnny Crab]

OP: Good advice but with soundmen you have some who understand that the band should sound the same(or better/bigger, whatever that is) in the FOH as they do on stage.....and then some listen and some just nod their heads and agree and bury you in the mix to sound how they think a bass SHOULD sound.

Having a wireless helps you as well(get off the stage and listen to the mix).

Example:
Two venues, different EXPERIENCED soundguys, both told of the "chameleon tone-wise" I get to be via Line 6 depending on the song.
One venue = my FOH sounds like my patch.
One venue = my FOH sounds like bass with all of the highs and mids cut(i.e. made to sound like pedestrian, generic bass). I've not discussed this with him, yet.

ALL of my patches have a bit of compression on to protect my gear, FOH gets the same feed as my amp(s). My patches are workable and leveled as they are developed with ACME B2's sitting a couple of feet from each ear....and later used live at non-FOH shows where I control my level in the band's mix(BOSE experience helps here).

 

[Gearhead17]

Just a thought, but shouldn't a sound guy be handling your sound instead of giving you that responsibility? I understand the musician has some responsibility, but a sound guy, when detecting a problem, should handle it instead of pissing and moaning about it to someone else, right?

This particular sound man is hard to deal with. He wants to set his controls and not do much through the songs. He usually asks a lot of the bands up there to get their clean and dirty guitar tones to the same level - he also asks guitar players to lower treble content if it is too high for him.

We are going to be playing this place again and he IS THE GUY for every large cover band in there, so I have to roll with him.

It was so odd for him to be complaining about my tones at the end of the show. Several people who had heard us MANY times before said my bass tone was not burying anyone out in the FOH.

 

[Gearhead17]

Having a wireless helps you as well(get off the stage and listen to the mix).

It would be nice to get off the stage and listen, but with several hundred people in the room and being an opening band, I did not have the time to do so.

 

[DennyOnBass]

Definitely a lesson on why communication with the FOH guy is so important. Having been on both sides, I see very few musicians who know the potential problems with their rigs and can communicate these things to the one guy who can help overcome them. In my case:

1) I slap fairly often
2) I often use various combinations of dirt, octave, and envelope filter
3) My Berg cab tends to really project when it gets out into the room and I'm not always aware of how loud I am onstage

When people asked me about compression in my rig I used to hold up the two fingers on my right hand and say "THIS is my compression." I still hate to have compression in my rig, so I try extremely hard to keep my technique balanced from slap to fingerstyle and also keep my effects properly balanced. That allows the FOH guy to use compression if need be without having to totally squash any sense of dynamics and nuance out of my sound in order to protect his system.

 

[SMILEYSIXX]

This particular sound man is hard to deal with. He wants to set his controls and not do much through the songs. He usually asks a lot of the bands up there to get their clean and dirty guitar tones to the same level - he also asks guitar players to lower treble content if it is too high for him.

We are going to be playing this place again and he IS THE GUY for every large cover band in there, so I have to roll with him.

It was so odd for him to be complaining about my tones at the end of the show. Several people who had heard us MANY times before said my bass tone was not burying anyone out in the FOH.

A sound man who doesn't wanna mess with the controls? I must be missing something because I'm pretty sure that is his job. Granted, a little knob tweaking on your part is all that's necessary, but if he finds a problem he should do something about it. I understand people who think you both should have communicated better, but if I was playing and a sound man didn't say a word to me about my sound, I would think it sounds good.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

It is the sound engineers responsibility to provide a quality mix
and proper monitoring on stage, but it is frustrating in the least to have to chase out of control dynamics (especially when they don't know yer material) when trying to provide a reasonable balance.
The ideal situation is definitely to be able to get an even mix, and let the band control the dynamics themselves with minimal adjustments.
There's a big difference between mixing and damage control.
The reason yer friends thought everything was fine is probably because the engineer worked his butt off chasing the uneven sounds provided, and thus felt the need to let you know what he was dealing with so next time you don't have the same issues.

 

[testing1two]

It is the sound engineers responsibility to provide a quality mix
and proper monitoring on stage, but it is frustrating in the least to have to chase out of control dynamics (especially when they don't know yer material) when trying to provide a reasonable balance.
The ideal situation is definitely to be able to get an even mix, and let the band control the dynamics themselves with minimal adjustments.
There's a big difference between mixing and damage control.
The reason yer friends thought everything was fine is probably because the engineer worked his butt off chasing the uneven sounds provided, and thus felt the need to let you know what he was dealing with so next time you don't have the same issues.

+1000. Everybody read this post twice.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

I am a sound guy and bassist as well. I have often been frustrated with the same issue. Even when I do get a sound check for both tones(clean and dirty) I often get the impression that most foh guys are paying more attention to the clean. This is a mistake. By the time they have done the standard low mid cut and 4k boost they have set themselves up for a brutal chainsaw when my OD kicks in. may well be what your soundguy did. A comp will actually exacerbate this more often than not. The greater lows of a clean sound will kick in more compression. The dirty tone is already compressed by the clipping so it gets less gain reduction.
The key of course is to balance your effect vs clean levels which is hard. Either that or get the fella to take a DI pre effect and mic your cab. That will allow him to maintain an even level and eq the dirt separate from the clean.
Me I always wanted a dual channel head for just this reason.

 

[Gearhead17]

The key of course is to balance your effect vs clean levels which is hard. Either that or get the fella to take a DI pre effect and mic your cab. That will allow him to maintain an even level and eq the dirt separate from the clean.
Me I always wanted a dual channel head for just this reason.

I have always wanted to do a clean and dirty blend for shows. The VT Deluxe on one DI box and the clean tone on the other DI. By doing that, he could easily control the two and the dirty channel would be silent until I turned it on.

Then that brings up the dreaded mic and/or DI argument. I have had maybe 4 shows where I had a mic and DI and I have grown tired of asking for it. So now all sound guys are getting one direct channel of clean with a foot switchable clean & dirt channel.

I have my very own Audix D4 and mic stand. Nearly every time I pull it out I get dumbest looks in the world. Very few of them know about Audix and look at the bass player funny for bringing a mic. Even if I opted for a mic over a DI box, I cut out the majority of low end from my stage tone and add in midrange as needed to hear myself. I do not think the sound guy wants my terrible stage tone.

 

[Gearhead17]

Just a thought, but shouldn't a sound guy be handling your sound instead of giving you that responsibility? I understand the musician has some responsibility, but a sound guy, when detecting a problem, should handle it instead of pissing and moaning about it to someone else, right?

I don't think he could find me after the show or something. All he really had to do was talk through the monitors and tell me the other channel was too loud. I would have fixed it quickly too. He had to tear down his stuff on stage to get the other band going, so the window to talk to me was short.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

It's really a bad idea to get into technical corrections with an artist mid set, unless it is a catastrophic situation.
First, it disrupts the flow of the set for the artist, second, it breaks the audiences attention and you risk not getting it back.
Also, when an artist is in the middle of a high stress creative situation, it is also likely that an over compensation can occur with even the simplest issue, and make matters worse.
I misread the original post, I thought the engineer had spoken to you directly about the gain issue. It would have been much more productive to discuss the situation directly with you.