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Let's be completely honest here about vintage basses...

#183
I may be wrong here but natural selection comes into effect here. Lets say vintage basses that are not up to par get delegated to the forgotten pile or used by players that destroy them. The good ones tend to stay with better players and the superior ones are sought out by great players and generate their own mythology. That is what we here when talking of vintage basses. Believe me there are lots of vintage dogs out there.
 
#185
joeaba said:
I can envision a builder using reclaimed wood to sell the idea that old wood has a distinctive tone. It probably doesn't, but depends on the builder. The answer to the question of what is better is subjective. Older instruments are hard to find and quite expensive. Collectors and sellers often exaggerate the qualities of older instruments to justify it's higher price, that doesn't make it play better. I think a 60 year old bassist that still plays his or her first fender might have a special relationship with that bass, that doesn't make it better. Some people just have an inherent biase when it comes to giving a valuation of something they are financially or emotionally vested in.
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I believe different types of wood have different qualities. Basswood is my favourite since I find it is deeper and more resonant. Ash is brighter. Several years ago I "accidentally" won a bass on Evilbay for $98. It was a big name but turned out to be plywood. It has no sustain, but I can see a use for it. It would work where sustain isn't needed or is heard to drop off quickly. Like within two seconds in this case.
 
#186
yes/no ..? i'd say things are just different now ... in the 60's i doubt you had a 100 different P's & J's variations to choose from ... you could order what you wanted ( similar to today's custom shop ) ... but i'd think most folks wandered into a local store and saw a few Fenders hanging on the wall and picked one out ..

or are we trying to figure out if the old jigs/rigs for making stuff by hand worked better than newer computerized CNC type machines ..?? does that make something better or worse ..? especially since there's not a lot that's ground breakingly different about ' a bass ' from old to new ... maybe some parts are a bit better as in tighter tolerances ... but comparing passive old to passive new ... not a whole bunch has changed ... !?

which puts 'value' solely in the hands of the buyer ..! mojo , vintage , relic ... just seem to be words to replace ' old but still cool ' ... i guess i have vintage mojo , since i'm old but still pretty cool ..! ha ...
but worth more or more desirable ..?

i have some 'old stuff' around the house ... but to me , they have a family connection that makes them valuable to me alone ..! 1929 Gibson UB-1 ( great grandfathers ) , 1920's Armstrong tube radio ( 94 yr olf father-in-laws ) 1940's Blessing coronet ( my grandfathers , played it all over Europe after WWII ) and more stuff like that ... ( flags, purple heart , bronze star , WWII items ) sentimental , but still kinda vintage ... in these cases new isn't better , because a few of these things are no longer made .!?!

or is it more of a nostalgic thing ..? wanting to recapture a piece of time from our past ..?! or have we just been brainwashed to think many old items have more 'value' than they really should ..!?

i've been on both sides of the fence on this issue ... from basses/guitars to cars ..! and i still don't think there is a right or wrong ... it's just how we personally value something at a given time,.. for whatever reason ..!
 
#187
mrbell321 said:
However, given enough time, bad examples or abused instruments will be discarded/destroyed. It's a bit of natural selection that leaves the "best" genes to the next generation for those that we consider "vintage". New basses may be good, or bad, but there's a lot of them still around, some are bound to be removed from the gene pool before too long, and that's more likely if they're bad.
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Pretty much my theory as well, the boat that's stronger will stay afloat longer. That's not to say someone babying a lemon isn't possible, but I don't think you're asserting that in your post anyways.

Really looking forward to seeing how some of the Ibanez and Squier basses are viewed in 20-30 years. My roommate scoffs at my Squiers, but he only has 1 Chinese Fender guitar with some modifications made to it. I laugh profusely on the inside :roflmao:
 
#188
nerkoids. i have a 1969 fender jazz. the one thing you are not realizing is electronic components drift over time. their tolerances change so the "mojo" of a vintage gear is how it is not stock and up to spec anymore, it's unique (could be in a bad way or good way).

i love that, i also love the wood quality, looks feels and sounds better than new wood (maybe because it's aged and older).
 
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#191
Jah Wobble Fan said:
I of course realize my "evidence" is anecdotal. But if there are plenty of mediocre-playing vintage Fenders around, then the skew toward players favoring them cannot be entirely due to their superior playability, as your premise implies (if I in fact understand you correctly).
In fact, a lot of people who idealize pre-cbs basses have not even ever seen one. Which is to say, it is my own wild guess that the general fervor is down to sentimentality and romanticism (neither of which I have issue with).
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It's about the look and the image for many, if not most. Vintage is the new black. it's what' "in" these days. In a few more years everyone will one some brand new space age looking thing. Although I would say that the wood could be a big factor. Electronics - back then, they were inconsistent and cheap, but that works for some because they like the "rubber band on a shoe box" tone

You want a vintage look on the cheap?: Buy a used squire for $100, remove everything from the body, then take said body and drag it behind a pickup truck down a gravel road, spill a bunch of beer on it and then leave it out in sub zero weather in the back of the aforementioned pickup for a few days and then bring it back into a nice warm room so it heats up quickly to create a plethora of beautiful cracks in the finish. Good chance when you put it all back together it will sound and play nearly as poorly as a vintage instrument!

I still have my "vintage" 77/78 P Bass that I paid about $325 in 1983. Replaced the lame original p/u decades ago and considering a newer "vintage" (i.e alnico, passive) sounding p/u. I'm have no fear of playing out with it as the damn thing has seen its share of abuse over the years. It looked new when I bought it and now it looks like Jaco's well worn infamous jazz bass. If it got stolen I wouldn't be out $2500 or whatever some sucker would pay for it because I only paid $325 and would never sell it anyways. I don't play it much because the frets are pretty worn down and I love the tone of my Spector NSCR4. But I will bring it out to a gig if I want to look "cool".

Bottom line is the general audience doesn't really care and can tell the diff between a true vintage or a quality instrument. As we know most don't even know the difference between a bass and a guitar.
 
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#193
Pablo Icecreambar said:
It's about the look and the image for many, if not most. Vintage is the new black. it's what' "in" these days. In a few more years everyone will one some brand new space age looking thing. Although I would say that the wood could be a big factor. Electronics - back then, they were inconsistent and cheap, but that works for some because they like the "rubber band on a shoe box" tone

You want a vintage look on the cheap?: Buy a used squire for $100, remove everything from the body, then take said body and drag it behind a pickup truck down a gravel road, spill a bunch of beer on it and then leave it out in sub zero weather in the back of the aforementioned pickup for a few days and then bring it back into a nice warm room so it heats up quickly to create a plethora of beautiful cracks in the finish. Good chance when you put it all back together it will sound and play nearly as poorly as a vintage instrument!

I still have my "vintage" 77/78 P Bass that I paid about $325 in 1983. Replaced the lame original p/u decades ago and considering a newer "vintage" (i.e alnico, passive) sounding p/u. I'm have no fear of playing out with it as the damn thing has seen its share of abuse over the years. It looked new when I bought it and now it looks like Jaco's well worn infamous jazz bass. If it got stolen I wouldn't be out $2500 or whatever some sucker would pay for it because I only paid $325 and would never sell it anyways. I don't play it much because the frets are pretty worn down and I love the tone of my Spector NSCR4. But I will bring it out to a gig if I want to look "cool".

Bottom line is the general audience doesn't really care and can tell the diff between a true vintage or a quality instrument. As we know most don't even know the difference between a bass and a guitar.
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It isn't their job to tell the difference. It's yours. Personally, I'd quit playing music if I thought what I did made so little difference.

Judging all vintage instruments by your 77 Precision? Sorry, but as the owner of a 76 myself, I don't consider late 70's Fenders "vintage," nor do I consider them enjoyable to play when they're stock. I've made tons of mods on mine over the years for that reason.
 
#194
I had a 1965 Fender Jazz and I wish I still had it. Not sure I'd trade my current Fender Jazz in for it though because the feel on the neck of my current Jazz ('78 USA) is the same as it was on my '65 AND it has more sustain than my '65 did. The feel of the neck is what grabbed me when I first pulled this bass off the wall. It just felt like home again.

When CBS bought Fender, the necks of the Jazz Basses exploded into these thick telephone pole necks - they really sucked. Took me about 10-years to find another Fender Jazz that had the same narrow (thickness not width) neck profile and Fender made a lot of basses between '65 and '78 when mine was made. That's probably why Geddy Lee sanded his neck down. I did not part willingly with my '65; it was stolen along with amp and microphones (thieves left me a mic stand). If it hadn't been stolen, I'd still be playing it.

Never going to sell my current Jazz Bass. You will have to pry my '78 Fender Jazz from my cold dead hands and fight my son for it as well. So, IMHO, at least some of the vintage basses still offer both cosmetic (lighter shade of rosewood fingerboard on my '65 than you can find now) and playability advantages over similar basses currently available. So it's not all hype. Having said that, you need to know what you are paying for. No way you'll get me to ever purchase a late '60's CBS Fender Jazz because of the cheapening and thickening of the neck. My current bass if far superior. Being old by itself is no advantage. Look at Silvertone amps. They were crap in the 60's and they're still crap but people pay "collector" prices for them. That's just stupid.

Anyhow, that's my 2¢, your mileage may vary... ;)
 
#195
Doner Designs said:
Is an original Van Gogh or Monet better than a copy or a "starving artist special" ? Certainly not to me, but one can be considered an investment (which like a stock can go up or down). The other is only for enjoyment.
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The painting "Portrait of a Peasant" by Vincent van Gogh is housed at a museum near me in Pasadena, CA, so I've had opportunity to see it repeatedly
with the naked eye and it is indeed more powerful as an original than as a reproduction, as plates, no matter how good the photograph, simply cannot
convey the aggressive texturing. So in the case of Vincent, I'm gonna go all Neil Young and say this painting needs PONO to be fully appreciated!




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#196
Bryan Castro, your point about saxes is well-made, and with good reason IMHO. Once saw Kenny G, and for most of the show he used his prized vintage Selmer soprano sax. But he gave away one of his Kenny G brand saxes during the show, and took off the mouthpiece from his Selmer and put it on the new sax and played a song. The new sax sounded extremely thin and reedy compared to the Selmer. Our sax player is a vintage nut and I used to think he was insane. After seeing Kenny with that new sax, no more.
 
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#198
JimmyM said:
Bryan Castro, your point about saxes is well-made, and with good reason IMHO. Once saw Kenny G, and for most of the show he used his prized vintage Selmer soprano sax. But he gave away one of his Kenny G brand saxes during the show, and took off the mouthpiece from his Selmer and put it on the new sax and played a song. The new sax sounded extremely thin and reedy compared to the Selmer. Our sax player is a vintage nut and I used to think he was insane. After seeing Kenny with that new sax, no more.
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Jimmy, while I would imagine you have covered this elsewhere, I am curious as to your experience with Pre-CBS Precisions.
Ever had the extended opportunity to play an early Precision you thought outstanding? Which Precisions from your past still haunt?
 
#199
markjazzbassist said:
nerkoids. i have a 1969 fender jazz. the one thing you are not realizing is electronic components drift over time. their tolerances change so the "mojo" of a vintage gear is how it is not stock and up to spec anymore, it's unique (could be in a bad way or good way).

i love that, i also love the wood quality, looks feels and sounds better than new wood (maybe because it's aged and older).
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I agree. I have owned and played a few vintage Fenders that no bass currently made can get that tone. Some come close with mods or effects but a plain old bass is sometimes just that.
 
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#200
It always surprises me how strongly people feel about the vintage thing. It seems like a lot (but not all) people who hate them are super vocal about how terrible and/or expensive vintage instruments are while the vintage lovers are way more mellow about why they like them...
I like vintage Fenders, but I personally wouldn't pay what most are being sold for, especially the pre-CBS and early CBS ones. If I had crazy money, my opinion would probably be different though.
 
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