Let's be completely honest here about vintage basses...

[aborgman]

You would rather have this

Than this?

Not me, I would take the 1970 Challenger ever time

Depends...

If it's a garage queen that I only drive for fun - I'll take the original.

If it's an everyday commuter I expect to start every time, even in the middle of a Michigan winter, and I'm going to put 50K miles a year on it... I'll take the new one.

Horses for courses and all that...

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Horses for courses and all that...

I definitely wouldn't want a 40 year old horse...

 

[aborgman]

As I said before, it's the neck shape and attention to detail.

I'm sure the neck shape is great... but chances are, it had nothing at all to do with "attention to detail". It had to do with "luck" and "random variation in production quality".

That same guy in the factory probably built 20 necks that day - all with the same attention to detail... and a couple are spectacular, a couple are awful, and the rest fall in the middle.

Sure they could scan it and replicate it but they won't. It's too delicate and potential numbers of warranty returns would calculate as too risky over at the bean counter lodge.

Fender won't. Plenty of other folks will.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Things are definitely better at Fender these days, especially when you get into Custom Shop stuff. The best Broadcaster/Telecaster/Esquire guitars I have played over the years were made in the early '50s. But just a few weeks ago, a friend of mine brought me his Custom Shop Esquire and it was every bit as good as the old blackguards I know and love. Then again, he paid something like $4k for it.

In other words: when Fender bothers to source good wood, dries it properly, and pays attention to detail, they can make something as good as their off-the-shelf production guitars from 60 years ago

You can joke as much as you want, but lumber quality has declined. If you do find pieces of old-growth hardwoods with good grain patterns in sizes big enough to make 1-piece guitar/bass bodies you'll pay through the nose.

For all the people who say "wood doesn't matter" there's a simple test: Go to GC and play a bunch of identical Fenders (or Gibsons or whatever). Do they all sound exactly the same, or do some sound better than others? Is the difference more likely to be due to manufacturing tolerances in the electronics/harware or differences in the wood?

Both.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

AFAIK typical variance in decent quality pots and capacitors is around +-5% and for cheaper components +-10%. I don't know what the typical pickup tolerances is over the various parameters. With a two pickup instrument there would be three pots, one capacitor, and the pickups, so that's room for quite a bit of variation, although open all the controls full and a lot of the variation for pots and capacitors will be taken out of the equation.

 

[Hopkins]

Depends...

If it's a garage queen that I only drive for fun - I'll take the original.

If it's an everyday commuter I expect to start every time, even in the middle of a Michigan winter, and I'm going to put 50K miles a year on it... I'll take the new one.

Horses for courses and all that...

Considering you could probably sell the 45 year old Challenger for more than double what the new one is worth, I would still rather have the old one. Which also holds true with basses.

 

[aborgman]

Considering you could probably sell the 45 year old Challenger for more than double what the new one is worth, I would still rather have the old one. Which also holds true with basses.

If you sell the old one - you don't have it. The question wasn't about which one you'd rather have the value for, it's which one you'd rather have...

If I had another car - I'd take the old one. If I had to drive the old one every day in all kinds of weather... I think I'll take the new one.

 

[Quadzilla]

While I agree with some here that in MOST cases. the build quality and hardware is overall better than a lot of the vintage stuff.

In some cases, there are exceptions. Take my '83 Ric 4003. She's light (`8.5 lbs), the neck is straight as an arrow, fret work is amazing and frets are still nearly 100% level some 33+ years later, the electronics are still amazing and even the tuners work extremely well and turn as smooth as any new, boutique tuner. No BS. I would put this geezer up against ANY new Ric (which I have read have actually been suffering some in the QC dept compared to the older ones). It's that damn good (ummm, great)!

 

[DirkP]

So do please tell me what year and model or pre-cbs YOU own that you can compare to a 2015 CSJ. What old bass are you intimately familiar with that is embedded in your hands that you are able to try a new bass and immediately identify what makes the old bass just as good.

I own 4 Fender Jazz, 2 Precisions and 2 Bass VI. The oldest Fenders I own are a '78 Jazz and a JV Series Squier P. I have only played 3 pre-CBS Fenders in shops.
I've never played a Stradivari..., but I believe in science if it is down well and the stradivarius experiment in 2010 and 2014 convince me more than what single owners of instruments write.

The "attention to detail" of workers at the Fender plant 50 years ago could easily and more accurate than ever before be replicated if the buyers of instruments would want that.

As I wrote before for me it is more about the old leather boots that have become a part of your body in a way. But nothing magical that has gone lost during the last decades. I like old instruments that have been played a lot.
If people are willing to pay a huge amount of money to get an old Fender it's fine with me. Maybe I would do it, too if I had the money. But would I play it a lot? I don't think so.

It is kind of amusing to see that the myth of old instruments don't die, but the reasons change a lot.
During the 90s I`ve read a thousand times about the magic nitro finishes do allowing the wood to dry...
Until the last player became aware of the fact that those magical pre-cbs Fenders were put into a plastic-coat before being finished...

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I have a couple of older basses that are nice, and have had four others in the past of a similar vintage that were as nice. I think I still have the old ones because they are nice, not because they are old, i.e. it's a selection bias. It's a bit like saying hat old cars must have been better made because some old cars are older than the typical age of new cars, but you can' t tell if they are better made until you wait until the new cars are as old as the old cars are now and count them relative to production and control for other factors. Old cars that still exist may just be the few that didn't rust away, and there is always some tail of things that don't decay away quite as quickly.

In other words, my own subjective opinions are suspect, even to me.

 

[96tbird]

I own 4 Fender Jazz, 2 Precisions and 2 Bass VI. The oldest Fenders I own are a '78 Jazz and a JV Series Squier P. I have only played 3 pre-CBS Fenders in shops.
I've never played a Stradivari..., but I believe in science if it is down well and the stradivarius experiment in 2010 and 2014 convince me more than what single owners of instruments write.

The "attention to detail" of workers at the Fender plant 50 years ago could easily and more accurate than ever before be replicated if the buyers of instruments would want that.

As I wrote before for me it is more about the old leather boots that have become a part of your body in a way. But nothing magical that has gone lost during the last decades. I like old instruments that have been played a lot.
If people are willing to pay a huge amount of money to get an old Fender it's fine with me. Maybe I would do it, too if I had the money. But would I play it a lot? I don't think so.

It is kind of amusing to see that the myth of old instruments don't die, but the reasons change a lot.
During the 90s I`ve read a thousand times about the magic nitro finishes do allowing the wood to dry...
Until the last player became aware of the fact that those magical pre-cbs Fenders were put into a plastic-coat before being finished...

Yep. Fullerplast. I'm fully aware of it unlike many. Shoots holes in a lot of myth.

I didn't mean to single you out as much as try to call out those that have zero experience and only give viewpoints based on anecdote.

I am sure that if you were in the market, you would be happy to pay the same price as a new jazz for mine. It's that good. You are a player and deserve a fair price on it. However if I was to sell, I would have to, for my best interests, find a silly collector that would pay a silly premium for it.

 

[Gaolee]

What's the definition of vintage? 20 years? 25 years? 40 years? Pre-CBS Fender and nothing else from any other maker? I'm just wondering if the 1991 Thunderbird I bought recently is officially vintage or not. It has its own unique attributes, and it has had an eventful life judging by the marks. But is it vintage?

 

[96tbird]

What's the definition of vintage? 20 years? 25 years? 40 years? Pre-CBS Fender and nothing else from any other maker? I'm just wondering if the 1991 Thunderbird I bought recently is officially vintage or not. It has its own unique attributes, and it has had an eventful life judging by the marks. But is it vintage?

Shall we use the furniture "definition". One anyway. Antique or Vintage

Or a dictionary definition: Vintage | Definition of vintage by Merriam-Webster

 

[Funk³]

I'm a huge fan of progressive metal and death metal, but I'd pick a '59 Les Paul over a $300,000 hand-made Ken Lawrence eight string any day. Why? Because the LP is a part of HISTORY. Why do people like vintage cars when modern ones are generally faster and a heck of a lot safer? Because they are historical, rare, and they were in the hand of the forerunner of their profesion.

 

[JustForSport]

What's the definition of vintage? 20 years? 25 years? 40 years? Pre-CBS Fender and nothing else from any other maker? I'm just wondering if the 1991 Thunderbird I bought recently is officially vintage or not. It has its own unique attributes, and it has had an eventful life judging by the marks. But is it vintage?

A lot probably depends on the age of the appraiser...

 

[liverbird]

Is there an advantage to vintage? Maybe. That is a personal decision. Case in point: I own 2 Jazz basses from 1960 in Shell Pink. That was a custom color at the time. They were a birthday gift from Leo to my uncle who was a personal friend and player. I have the original goofy card from Leo as well as all paperwork and the then "case candy" from one of these basses. One saw much use and some abuse. The other is in about as mint condition as could be possible. I bought these off my uncle for investment purposes - Not for use out in the world. The heavily used one I sometimes noodle on. The other I check on from time to time to see how the old girl is holding up. They get a yearly check-up for health reasons. Both are kept keep in their cases in a climate controlled safe due to the value. Lucky for me, some of the the ancient materials used on both have held very up well.

Two original stack-knobs in Shell Pink? Blimey.

There probably isn't a single person on this site who wouldn't love to see some pics of those!

 

[Son of Wobble]

Two original stack-knobs in Shell Pink? Blimey.

There probably isn't a single person on this site who wouldn't love to see some pics of those!

I'm in. Ante (not mine, unfortunately).

 

[jaybones]

Maybe I should have said that vintage pickups sounds better, not because of some aging or mellowing. Probably because of the variations in the manufacturing. Remember hearing a story about Leo Fender using an old phonograph motor to wind his early pickups. Due to the variations in the voltage and speed of the motor, the winds were not consistent on each magnet. Turned out that perfect winds on each magnet didn't pick up signals as well as winds that were not entirely identical. And that some sloppiness, or overlapping winds was a good thing.

 

[96tbird]

Maybe I should have said that vintage pickups sounds better, not because of some aging or mellowing. Probably because of the variations in the manufacturing. Remember hearing a story about Leo Fender using an old phonograph motor to wind his early pickups. Due to the variations in the voltage and speed of the motor, the winds were not consistent on each magnet. Turned out that perfect winds on each magnet didn't pick up signals as well as winds that were not entirely identical. And that some sloppiness, or overlapping winds was a good thing.

People that know more than us say that the winding theory is not true. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] electrons simply don't know the difference. :shrug:

 

[Son of Wobble]

electrons simply don't know the difference. :shrug:

Some electrons do indeed 'know;' however, this requires them to be on their game ( get lots of sleep, good nutrition, study and analyze their game) ... In other words, really make a committed effort.

Certainly, the current climate proves ours is "no country for old electrons."