Let's talk about weight

[danosix]

For bass amps/cabs to have any real ass, they have to have a certain amount of weight...if you need headroom, you need a few lbs behind you...bass is a physical thing...lots of air.

I'm sorry, but that's not really true.
While it is true that ALL other things being equal (power, drivers, materials, everything else) than generally the heavier rig will be louder.
But with Neo drivers, new materials, switiching power supplies, SS over Tube, the same power and volume and response can indeed be achieved with a much less heavy system.

 

[danosix]

What kills me is the reliance on smaller and/or fewer cabs, again with the weight thing. There seem to be a similar thread every week, someone asking if a 1x10 or 1x12 will be loud enough for their band. (Unless it's an acoustic bluegrass band, probably not) Sure, electronic technology has gotten better. So people seem almost to expect a 500 or 700 watt amp that fits in your coat pocket, but people forget that there hasn't been a corresponding improvement in bass speaker technology. Yes, neodymium magnets and improved cone materials have helped a lot, but you still need a 'big' speaker in a big enclosure to push a lot of bass at band volume, this is just physics. It's still a paper cone pushed by an electromagnet in a plywood box, that hasn't changed in 50 years.

I guess people now expect the PA to do the 'heavy lifting' for them, but when I started playing in the early 90s PAs were still mostly for vocals. The bass amp & cab had to 'carry' the room, and in any case I want to be able to hear myself regardless of where the soundman thinks I belong in the mix. 4x10 cab lifted up on a chair is the ticket for me. I can't imagine playing with anything less than a 4x10 or 2x12 cab in a band situation.

You are right in that all things being equal bigger speakers will be louder and more efficient with the same power input.
Having said that. If you are running 1200 watts into a 10 instead of 200 into a 15 the power is going to compensate for the smaller drivers (assuming they can handle it). So you can at least theoretically go smaller in the cab if you have very high-powered digital amps (well any - but this is a thread about light amps).
Of course, I'd never RECOMMEND someone try to keep up with a loud drummer with a 110 but it is at least conceivable.
Also, a LOT of people have gone to 2x112s instead of 2x115s because the immense amount of power you can get nowadays for very little money.
Finally - more and more people are playing either in small clubs where super high volumes are no longer needed or are playing with FOH support and in those cases less if very often more.

 

[electracoyote]

Older guy raising his hand: Guilty of not wanting to lift heavy gear if I can get good tone from lighter gear.

I made a comfortable living as a mobile upscale DJ for about 10 years while in my 40's and routinely set up full PA and light systems alone. I'm now 56, and my back is still in great shape; I'm very lucky and I want to keep it that way as long as possible. I could still DJ a wedding or haul an SVT to my gigs if I wanted to.

But why tempt fate when there are viable alternatives?

 

[CatSquare]

I don't think a heavy head would bother me much. Heavy heads are manageable because all that weight is concentrated into a box that either has handles, or you can get your arms around - lifting them up and down three flights of stairs to my apartment is doable. The big cabs, now those are a different story - my SVT-410hlf may be only 10-20lbs heavier than some tube heads, but the physical size/weight distribution are what make moving it so brutal. I've found I have a pretty high threshold for dealing with that kind of stuff when the tone is worth it, though.

 

[DrumsAndBass]

No, not your tummy, your bass amp. Inspired by hundreds of threads on talkbass about tube heads, I am often struck by how often the weight of an amp seems to be at the top of players' priorities when it comes to amps. As someone who loads in and out a hundred or more times a year, and has done so for 20+ years, I always just consider the weight of my gear part of the much bigger picture. It's not like you have to hold the amp up all night. You just put it on a cart and heft it into place and then do the reverse at the end of the night. Obviously, some people have back problems and I certainly sympathize with that, but without being judgemental at all, I ask: how can an amp's weight really matter? It has just always struck me as totally inconsequential. Explain it to me. I mean, if you wanted a lightweight gig, shouldn't you have become a lead singer instead?

My cabs are heavier than my amps but I've learned enough about the biomechanics of lifting to move the cabs without hurting myself. In fact, I bought the cabs first with little to no concern for their weight. It turned out that my amp - in a 4 space skb rack is not heavy at all. Does our desired tone influence the weight of our gear ?
I don't mind carrying my own gear - I actually need the exercise. A lead singer ? - I can't do it. I am a bass guitar player and that's the only instrument that makes me happy.

 

[BurningSkies]

You are right in that all things being equal bigger speakers will be louder and more efficient with the same power input.
Having said that. If you are running 1200 watts into a 10 instead of 200 into a 15 the power is going to compensate for the smaller drivers (assuming they can handle it). So you can at least theoretically go smaller in the cab if you have very high-powered digital amps (well any - but this is a thread about light amps).
Of course, I'd never RECOMMEND someone try to keep up with a loud drummer with a 110 but it is at least conceivable.
Also, a LOT of people have gone to 2x112s instead of 2x115s because the immense amount of power you can get nowadays for very little money.
Finally - more and more people are playing either in small clubs where super high volumes are no longer needed or are playing with FOH support and in those cases less if very often more.

I have two large 15's and over 2Kw of power. Light doesn't have to be 'small' nor does it have to be quiet. I'm also ready to upgrade the band's 15"/horn FOH speakers for gigs where there's no FOH supplied. When you're putting stuff up on stands the newer lightweight high power potential speakers are great for making sure no one strains or pulls something before a set.

 

[lyla1953]

Generally along with the sound, quality, flexibility - comes weight. I think I've found my sweet spot with Aguilar TH500 (3.4lbs) plus a pair of SL112 Neo cabs (25lbs each). I also like the ability to get in and out of a small to medium venue with one trip - bass on back + rig in hand. Man I just hate to leave my gear under the watchful eye of strangers in the club or SUV. The other thing I've found problematic with heavy gear is the weather. Seem's like half the year around here there is ice or snow outside - that stuff is hell to push, drag or carry anything through.

 

[FFTT]

In too many cases, it's not the amp head that needs to shed weight but the user.

 

[danosix]

I have two large 15's and over 2Kw of power. Light doesn't have to be 'small' nor does it have to be quiet. I'm also ready to upgrade the band's 15"/horn FOH speakers for gigs where there's no FOH supplied. When you're putting stuff up on stands the newer lightweight high power potential speakers are great for making sure no one strains or pulls something before a set.

For the record, I agree with you.
Just trying to be as fair to the OP as possible by imagining someone would build two cabinets that were otherwise identical but used heavier magnets or thicker materials or whatever to make it louder (I can't actually imagine how you'd make it louder but otherwise identical, but hypothetically...)
I am completely on the side of weight does NOT equal sound quality or volume.
As for the "smaller" bit - that was in response to the poster who was complaining that people ask about small drivers replacing larger drivers. Thus I had to compare small to large. I KNOW many light cabs are large (or at least not small), I was just responding to someone who was equating "light" with "small".

 

[Interceptor]

My sympathies to those with back problems. That's a problem set like no other.

I move a rig a time or two a week at age 55. Some of those moves include parking blocks away or carting through a big hotel. The moves I have deep disdain for are parking structures that are a few blocks away together with snow and ice. I also play things like weddings at golf courses where my car is several hundred yards away from where things get set up. The "Gator" always shows up right after the PA is fired up. On those gigs, it is a four pound head and a 26 pound cabinet. I appreciate modern gear and all the advances it brings.

It is all context. There's a bar hosting blues bands near my home. The load in there is park within 50 feet of the door, and cart up a handicap ramp. If that's what I played, I wouldn't have a care in the world about weight.

 

[corinpills]

What is that statement supposed to mean?

Today an 810 is too heavy so I should have decided as a 16 year old to be a singer instead?

I'm sorry, there is no logic or sense in the question.

I think it's extremely logical. Choosing to play an instrument that is associated with larger gear (larger than, say, a piccolo) and then moaning about how heavy the thing is seems illogical to me. When you were 16, you knew that the bass amp was bigger and heavier than the guitar amp, right? Here's a question for you: why is it that a question asked solely to hear what people have to say on the subject demands a dickish tone in your response? Can't we just have a nice chat?

One nice thing, as some people have mentioned, is that it is often the speaker cabinets that are the real hassle and speaker technology has really come a long way in the 25+ years I have been playing. The speakers are just so much more efficient and you no longer have to have magnets the size of anvils to get a good reproduction of your tone.

Also, I think we can all agree: deepest sympathies to those beset by back problems. I think we all know that it can really make your life miserable. My Step- dad had such back issues when I was growing up that it was like he was bipolar. Two totally different personalities depending on his back

 

[modulusman]

I think it's extremely logical. Choosing to play an instrument that is associated with larger gear (larger than, say, a piccolo) and then moaning about how heavy the thing is seems illogical to me. When you were 16, you knew that the bass amp was bigger and heavier than the guitar amp, right? Here's a question for you: why is it that a question asked solely to hear what people have to say on the subject demands a dickish tone in your response? Can't we just have a nice chat?

One nice thing, as some people have mentioned, is that it is often the speaker cabinets that are the real hassle and speaker technology has really come a long way in the 25+ years I have been playing. The speakers are just so much more efficient and you no longer have to have magnets the size of anvils to get a good reproduction of your tone.

Also, I think we can all agree: deepest sympathies to those beset by back problems. I think we all know that it can really make your life miserable. My Step- dad had such back issues when I was growing up that it was like he was bipolar. Two totally different personalities depending on his back

The opposite is actually true. Speakers can handle more power than they use to but I don't think they are as efficient.

 

[SouthTunnel]

Weight and size are critical because weight/size = technological progress! People want smaller and people want lighter, and as technology improves, companies find ways to get the same quality out of smaller devices. This is progress. I have a GB Shuttle that I can literally fit into the front pocket of my bass bag. If I'm only using my smaller HyDrive 112 cab, then I can put the bass/amp on my back, and carry the cab with one hand, and still have another hand free. This to me is invaluable to me. This is freedom!

Any company nowadays that only manufactures mammoth amps that weigh a ton, is just being lazy in terms of R&D.

 

[eriky4003]

Was there in the day to haul a Traynor, then Acoustic (solid-state) when I bought a Hartke 3500 in the early '90's. I was happy to shed some of the weight of the older amps back then. Move forward 20 years and I didn't feel I was trading down when I bought a micro (the lack of a tube sound, maybe). Never occurred to me that, as a bass player, I should have the heaviest gear. Gone to Neo speakers as well...

 

[corinpills]

Weight and size are critical because weight/size = technological progress! People want smaller and people want lighter, and as technology improves, companies find ways to get the same quality out of smaller devices. This is progress. I have a GB Shuttle that I can literally fit into the front pocket of my bass bag. If I'm only using my smaller HyDrive 112 cab, then I can put the bass/amp on my back, and carry the cab with one hand, and still have another hand free. This to me is invaluable to me. This is freedom!

Any company nowadays that only manufactures mammoth amps that weigh a ton, is just being lazy in terms of R&D.

Unless the player really prefers the sound of an older amp with glowing glass thingies. The love that dare not speak it's name. It's not progress to some people because it doesn't sound as good. Rather like people who prefer classic muscle cars to more fuel-efficient ones.

 

[SteveHeissner]

Up flights of stairs, down flights of stairs, up a ladder once to play on top of a large houseboat in the middle of a lake. There are times when light weight is important to me. I wish that was never the case, but that and a spine injury are my reality.

 

[danosix]

Unless the player really prefers the sound of an older amp with glowing glass thingies. The love that dare not speak it's name. It's not progress to some people because it doesn't sound as good. Rather like people who prefer classic muscle cars to more fuel-efficient ones.

I hardly think that tubophilia is the "love that dare not speak it's name".
As a rule, here at TB you are just as likely to be accused of being a nube or ignorant or worse if you even suggest you like your SS rig as much as another player likes his tubes.
In fact, the wording of your response reflects a basic assumption that "glowing glass" is inherently superior. Yet, as you say it is only superior if "the player prefers" that sound.
There is most certainly a DIFFERENCE in the sound of tubes and SS and Digital, but that difference is minor now that amp makers have spent time actually building good SS rigs and no know to do it properly. There was indeed a time when TUBE = GOOD and SS = BAD, but not longer, now they are just DIFFERENT. Many players who indeed can chose and play whatever they want and don't have to worry about weight (roadies, whatever) deliberately chose SS and digital options. That doesn't make old/heavy/tube BAD either, just another option.

 

[TMARK]

My tube heads aren't too heavy. I think they are both about 40 pounds each. Its the cabinets I use with them that kill me: Eden 410XLT and Orange 410. Casters and a Rocknroller ease the pain.

My light rig is a Thunderfunk 550 into one or two Avatar 210 NEOs. Modular and portable. I would guess that one 210 and the TF weigh about 50 pounds. I can carry the 210 with one hand, the TF in a back pack with cables and my bass in the other hand. The Thunderfunk has a fantastic tone, just not a tube tone. I like it as much as my Ampeg and my Orange. I think its the best SS amp I've played. It seriously THUMPS at volume.

 

[Robroy]

It's a simple cost vs benefit equation, with cost being weight.

And different people value the cost side differently as well as the benefit.

i.e. some think the sound difference between a heavy head and light one is huge. High benefit. and some thing the cost difference between heavy and light is huge. And opinions vary everywhere in between.

Heck, some don't even LIKE tube sound.

 

[orange joe]

I am making the transition to lighter gear slowly.I went from a 4x10 to a couple of 2x10s stacked vertically.Now I am building a couple of Fitzmaurice 2x10s with neos to lighten the load even more.I am lucky enough not to have any major back issues but I intend to keep it that way.I am going to have trouble giving up my SWR heads though.