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Level and true a compound radius fingerboard

Jul 19, 2000
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Endorsing Artist: Pedulla Basses
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Are the any tricks or tips to leveling a compound radius prior to installing the frets?

I used my radius jig and put the curves on, now I just want to make sure it's level from one end to the other.

And to clarify, as a final sanding reference point - I want the crown height on both ends of the fretboard to be completely even vs the edges, which will differ in thickness/height, correct?

Want to just make sure I'm referencing the right dimensions with my caliper and straightedge as I true it up.
 
Not quite sure I understand the question, but if you want to ensure it is flat then you would check with a straight edge along the string paths, just as you normally would on a cylindrical fingerboard.

For sanding/leveling I'd do it just as you would level the frets, or prepare a fretless; with a narrow non radiused sanding block/beam.

Again, I'm not sure I understood what you meant so that might not have been ever so useful :)!
 
Here's a copy of a post I made in 2012, covering this subject. The subject was the geometry of leveling fretless fingerboards, and the conversation got into the differences between cylindrical and conical (compound) radiuses.

I think this discussion is getting confusing because you guys are missing one element. I'll try my hand at explaining the geometry here:

First, a normal, typical bass fingerboard is cylindrical. That is, it has the same radius at the nut as at the heel.

However, as described above, the strings aren't parallel. They are closer together at the nut than they are at the bridge. Even though the radius of the undersides of the strings may be the same at the nut as at the bridge, the underside of the strings actually describe a slightly different shape than a cylinder.

The strings going right down the center of the fingerboard will be true. That is, if you lay a straightedge down the centerline of a normal cylindrical fingerboard, it will lay flat. However, as you move the straightedge off to the side at an angle to the centerline, following the actual paths of the outboard strings, you'll find that the center will be high. The straightedge will rock on a high spot in the center, as if the neck were backbowed. The further off-angle to the centerline you go, the worse this condition will be. Also, the smaller the fingerboard radius (rounder) is, the worse it will be. If you cut the fingerboard to a pure cylinder, you'll end up with high-spot buzzing on the outboard strings, but not the center strings.

So how do you trim the surface of a cylindrical fingerboard to correct for this problem? The process is just like Musiclogic described above; you level-file right along the actual string paths, blending in between them. This process is often called "conical filing", but it isn't really forming a cone shape. That's what gets confusing. It's actually forming a slight "hourglass" shape. The radiuses at either end of the fingerboard are untouched. You are trimming away wood at the middle of the fingerboard (lengthwise), but only on either side of the centerline. So, the radiuses at the nut and the heel may be 12", but the radius at the 7th fret will be slightly less, like 11 3/4". I prefer to call this "hourglass filing" to minimize the confusion.

On a fingerboard that has been properly "hourglass filed" like this, a straightedge placed along all of the string paths will be dead flat. When the straightedge is placed parallel to the centerline, but off to either side of center, there will be a slight gap under the middle, a "relief". But, down the center, there's no gap. This is where owners often get really confused when trying to check the relief and adjust the truss rod. A high quality, hourglass-filed fingerboard can give you confusing relief readings if you don't understand what you are looking for.

If you want to get really technical, the real mathematical description of this hourglass-filed fingerboard is.....wait for it.....an offset hyperbolic paraboloid! I'm sure that brings back some frightening memories from your school days. Picture an hourglass, where you take the narrow waist and push it off to the side enough that one side becomes straight. That's what an "hourglass-filed" fingerboard looks like. The centerline of the fingerboard is right on that straight side. The further off to either side you go, the more hourglass-shaped it becomes. Try not to get a headache.

So, how does this relate to compound radius fingerboards? A "compound radius" fingerboard is just another term for a conical-shaped fingerboard. That is, the radius is larger at the heel than it is at the nut. The surface is a section of a cone. Basically, the more conical you make the fingerboard shape, the less need there will be for the "hourglass filing" correction. There is a point where the surface becomes conical enough that no hourglass filing is needed. However, most commercial compound radius fingerboards aren't that radical, and still need a little bit of correction to make them flat along the string paths.

What confuses things even more is that instruments built with compound radius fingerboards often also use a flatter radius on the bridge than on the nut. So, the underside of the strings are also on a conical shape, but they still aren't parallel, so the fingerboard surface still ends up needing some hourglass-filing correction. Don't hurt yourself picturing that one.

How does this relate to frets? Exactly the same way. A really good fretjob has this hourglass-filing correction as part of it. The typical process involves using a straight file or diamond stick or oilstone, working along the string paths and blending in between. Leveling frets with sandpaper on a radius block is only a way of roughing them in. It takes an extra step to make them really true for the strings.

Let me repeat: All of this hourglass-filing stuff becomes less noticeable and necessary as the fingerboard radius gets flatter (larger radius). A flat fingerboard doesn't have this effect at all. That's one of the reasons why manufacturers and builders like to go with flatter fingerboards; it's less complicated. I personally like to build my basses with very round fingerboards, from 7 1/4" to 4" radius. At a 4" radius, all of these geometry issues become much more obvious. That's why I've spent the time working with them and trying to understand them.

I hope this helps clarify the discussion?
Here's another post I wrote, a little further down, explaining more:

Yeah, upright bass fingerboards really exaggerate all of this geometry. I do a lot with hot rodded Baby Bass necks. Dramatic conical fingerboards, combined with a wide taper in the string spacing and relief cuts that have to rotate around the cone! Shaping out an upright bass fingerboard is a lot harder than most people understand.

You've got to keep the terminology straight though:
Doing an "hourglass" trim does not, by itself, change a cylindrical fingerboard into a conical fingerboard. You can do an hourglass trim on a cylindrical fingerboard, or you can do an hourglass trim on a conical fingerboard.

If you're changing a cylindrical fingerboard into a conical (or "compound radius") fingerboard, that would correctly be called a "conical trim". You are changing it into a cone, so that the radiuses are now different at the two ends.

Upright bass fingerboards start out as a conical shape, around 2 1/2" radius at the nut and 4" radius at the heel. To true it up for low action, it needs to be "hourglass filed", which makes the middle a little skinnier, but doesn't change the radius at either end. That would correctly be called an "hourglassed conical" fingerboard.

Now, most electric basses have cylindrical fingerboards, with the same radius on both ends. To trick it out for low action, you can "hourglass file" it. But that doesn't make it into a conical (compound radius) fingerboard. It just makes it into an "hourglassed cylindrical" fingerboard.

Of course if you want to, you can do both: First "conical file" it to convert it from a cylinder into a cone (that is, making it into a compound radius fingerboard), then "hourglass file" it to correct for the taper in string width.

Is that more understandable?

I know this all sounds complicated, but it comes down to the same basic thing: In terms of playability, the only thing that matters is the 1/4" wide strip of wood directly underneath each string. The rest of the fingerboard is just there for decoration. That's what Big B is doing with his technique with the jointer: Get the string paths straight, and then blend off the excess between them.

A few years back, I worked on some really radical instruments that had reverse compound fingerboards! They were 7 1/4" radius at the nut and 2 3/4" radius at the heel, if you can imagine that. Six strings, short scale length. The fingerboard geometry was crazy. They required a significant amount of hourglass filing, close to 1/8" off in the middle of the fingerboard. As I mentioned above, the more radical the radius, the more hourglassing is required. For those necks, I ended up making a special router fixture that cut six round-bottom flutes directly along the string paths. Once those paths were created, I would round off the spines between the flutes. It was surprising how hourglassed the final shape of the fingerboard was.
Here's the whole thread:
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/even-fretless-fingerboard-levelling-tips.905673/
 
Yeah, I know! Most of us who have been doing this for a while end up using the same basic technique. But there's a lot of confusion in how we describe the geometry. That's why I wrote those long posts. I came up with the term "hourglassing" as a way to better describe the actual shape. I don't know if that simplifies it, or makes it more confusing.
 
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Yeah, I know! Most of us who have been doing this for a while end up using the same basic technique. But there's a lot of confusion in how we describe the geometry. That's why I wrote those long posts. I came up with the term "hourglassing" as a way to better describe the actual shape. I don't know if that simplifies it, or makes it more confusing.

....but that's what I said to do (admittedly in much less detail!)

So, if I'm getting this correctly, the fingerboard will no longer have a smooth and perfectly rounded surface after the levelling process. Is that correct Bruce/Manton?
 
Mr. Bruce Johnson, this is now the 3rd or 4th time I have copied one of your posts and saved it in a document on my "building correctly" folder. You extremely easy to understand but thorough explanations of the finer points of luthiery are priceless to me. I have learned so much from reading your posts all I can say I am so glad that your are an active member here. Thank you!
 
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So, if I'm getting this correctly, the fingerboard will no longer have a smooth and perfectly rounded surface after the levelling process. Is that correct Bruce/Manton?

The point I'm trying to make is that the surface of a perfectly leveled fingerboard isn't a smooth cylinder or a smooth section of a cone. It's actually a slight offset hourglass shape. It's straight right down the center, but off to either side, it has a "waist", tapering in slightly, and then back out again. And I'm not talking about relief here; this is a straight fingerboard. But that's the shape that's needed to keep the outboard strings from buzzing in the middle.

I know this isn't intuitively obvious. You have to think about it a bit to see why this hourglass shape is important. Take something cylindrical, like a piece of tubing or pipe. Set a straightedge on it and look what happens when you move the straightedge at a small angle to the centerline of the pipe. It rocks over a high spot in the middle. That's what's going on.

If you sand the fingerboard or the tops of the frets with a radius block, the surface won't be right. Put a straightedge down the outboard string paths and you'll see how it rocks in the middle. The radius block gets it close, but to make it true you still need to sand with a straight bar down the string paths. This will leave some slight grooves in the middle of the neck (lengthwise), on either side of the center. After the string paths are trued up, you blend in that area in the middle so it looks good. The final shape is that smooth hourglass. It's the same radius at the ends, but a slightly smaller radius in the middle.
 
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The point I'm trying to make is that the surface of a perfectly leveled fingerboard isn't a smooth cylinder or a smooth section of a cone. It's actually a slight offset hourglass shape. It's straight right down the center, but off to either side, it has a "waist", tapering in slightly, and then back out again. And I'm not talking about relief here; this is a straight fingerboard. But that's the shape that's needed to keep the outboard strings from buzzing in the middle.

I know this isn't intuitively obvious. You have to think about it a bit to see why this hourglass shape is important. Take something cylindrical, like a piece of tubing or pipe. Set a straightedge on it and look what happens when you move the straightedge at a small angle to the centerline of the pipe. It rocks over a high spot in the middle. That's what's going on.

If you sand the fingerboard or the tops of the frets with a radius block, the surface won't be right. Put a straightedge down the outboard string paths and you'll see how it rocks in the middle. The radius block gets it close, but to make it true you still need to sand with a straight bar down the string paths. This will leave some slight grooves in the middle of the neck (lengthwise), on either side of the center. After the string paths are trued up, you blend in that area in the middle so it looks good. The final shape is that smooth hourglass. It's the same radius at the ends, but a slightly smaller radius in the middle.

I understood you explanation from your previous posts. I was just asking the question to confirm my whether I understood it correctly.

So in short, the answer to my question is "Yes", which means that when the FB is perfectly levelled, it will not be perfectly round in shape. Instead, it will have "x number of flat sides", where x equals to the number of strings or (number of strings -1) if the bass has odd number of strings.

Am I right?
 
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It depends on what you mean by perfectly round. It's not going to be perfectly round along the neck (cylindrical) as that's not the shape you are creating. It will appear perfectly round when viewed in small sections. Those flats are blended to make the final shape. I don't think I can explain it any better than Bruce has done :unsure: .
 
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Really glad I posted this. Great discussion guys. Bruce, your explanation makes a lot of sense.

So essentially, in a nutshell - the most important thing is to make sure the individual string paths are level along the compound as they fan out from nut to bridge?

Lonnybass
 
I understood you explanation from your previous posts. I was just asking the question to confirm my whether I understood it correctly.

So in short, the answer to my question is "Yes", which means that when the FB is perfectly levelled, it will not be perfectly round in shape. Instead, it will have "x number of flat sides", where x equals to the number of strings or (number of strings -1) if the bass has odd number of strings.

Am I right?

No, I think you are still misunderstanding. Looking at the fingerboard in cross-section at any point, it will still be a smooth radius. It's not facets or flats. You sand the straight flat paths under each string, to locate those points on the curve, and then round off between them. The result looks like a cylinder, but it actually "hourglasses" in the middle.

If for example, the fingerboard was 7 1/4", it would be 7 1/4" radius at each end. But in the middle, the radius will be slightly smaller, like 7". It doesn't sound like much, but it really makes a difference in making the frets/fingerboard true to the strings.

This same geometry also applies to a conical or compound radius fingerboard. For example, a common compound radius fingerboard is 12" at the nut and 16" at the heel. At the midpoint (lengthwise), you'd expect it to be 14" radius. But if it's cut correctly, it will actually be something like 13 3/4" radius.

Either way, it's all smooth and rounded.
 
Really glad I posted this. Great discussion guys. Bruce, your explanation makes a lot of sense.

So essentially, in a nutshell - the most important thing is to make sure the individual string paths are level along the compound as they fan out from nut to bridge?

Lonnybass

Yes, that's what's critical. Mark the locations of the strings at both ends of the fingerboard, and lay a 24" straightedge along each of those paths. Get those correct, using a flat sanding block, checking against the straightedge. Then, draw a line on the surface, right down each string path. Round off the extra ridges between those lines, being careful not to actually hit the lines. That preserves the important parts. Finally, sand the whole surface with a soft pad to get the scratches out, being careful to keep the sanding even and not disrupt the shape.
 
No, I think you are still misunderstanding. Looking at the fingerboard in cross-section at any point, it will still be a smooth radius. It's not facets or flats. You sand the straight flat paths under each string, to locate those points on the curve, and then round off between them. The result looks like a cylinder, but it actually "hourglasses" in the middle.

If for example, the fingerboard was 7 1/4", it would be 7 1/4" radius at each end. But in the middle, the radius will be slightly smaller, like 7". It doesn't sound like much, but it really makes a difference in making the frets/fingerboard true to the strings.

This same geometry also applies to a conical or compound radius fingerboard. For example, a common compound radius fingerboard is 12" at the nut and 16" at the heel. At the midpoint (lengthwise), you'd expect it to be 14" radius. But if it's cut correctly, it will actually be something like 13 3/4" radius.

Either way, it's all smooth and rounded.

Thanks Bruce.

However, on a fretted bass, would it be more effective to just do it on the frets rather than on the FB?

How long would it take you to shape 1 FB?

Thanks again Bruce, I really appreciate the effort you have been putting to explain this issue.

Harry
 
Harry;

Yes, on a fretted bass, all that really matters is the tops of the frets. Most of us, most of the time, surface the fingerboards as straight cylinders and cones. We put in the frets to fit the fingerboards, and then level them to the final shape. During the leveling, we do the string path thing, which results in the hourglass shape. If you look carefully, the outboard ends of the frets in the middle of the neck end up a little shallower in height than the frets at the nut and the heel. As I mentioned before, this mostly visible on round fingerboards, like 7 1/4" radius. The flatter the fingerboard, the smaller the effect is.

By the way, this is the biggest reason why inexpensive instruments have fret buzzing problems when you run the action low. On any bass that sells for $500 or less, they don't do this string path leveling. In fact, they don't do any leveling at all. The fingerboards are cut to a cylindrical shape and the frets are simply pressed in, all in one shot, with a large metal caul. Picture a long block of steel with a 12" concave radius in it. Mounted in a big pneumatic press, it pushes all the frets down at once and leaves them even in height. Trim the ends on a belt sander and it's done. There's your inexpensive fret job. It sounds like a great idea, until you check it with a straightedge along the string paths. A good, correct leveling job on an inexpensive instrument can make a big difference if you are doing the super low action thing.

Anyway, a fretless fingerboard with a small radius is where you have to really pay attention to the string paths and the hourglass shape. It's also important on a compound radius (conical) fingerboard. I don't do compound radius boards very often, but when I do (fretted or fretless) I'll rough them in with the router in the radiusing fixture, then finish them up by leveling the string paths with a flat block and a straightedge, and blending in the ridges. It doesn't really take that long, because there's not a lot of material being removed.
 
Harry;

Yes, on a fretted bass, all that really matters is the tops of the frets. Most of us, most of the time, surface the fingerboards as straight cylinders and cones. We put in the frets to fit the fingerboards, and then level them to the final shape. During the leveling, we do the string path thing, which results in the hourglass shape. If you look carefully, the outboard ends of the frets in the middle of the neck end up a little shallower in height than the frets at the nut and the heel. As I mentioned before, this mostly visible on round fingerboards, like 7 1/4" radius. The flatter the fingerboard, the smaller the effect is.

By the way, this is the biggest reason why inexpensive instruments have fret buzzing problems when you run the action low. On any bass that sells for $500 or less, they don't do this string path leveling. In fact, they don't do any leveling at all. The fingerboards are cut to a cylindrical shape and the frets are simply pressed in, all in one shot, with a large metal caul. Picture a long block of steel with a 12" concave radius in it. Mounted in a big pneumatic press, it pushes all the frets down at once and leaves them even in height. Trim the ends on a belt sander and it's done. There's your inexpensive fret job. It sounds like a great idea, until you check it with a straightedge along the string paths. A good, correct leveling job on an inexpensive instrument can make a big difference if you are doing the super low action thing.

Anyway, a fretless fingerboard with a small radius is where you have to really pay attention to the string paths and the hourglass shape. It's also important on a compound radius (conical) fingerboard. I don't do compound radius boards very often, but when I do (fretted or fretless) I'll rough them in with the router in the radiusing fixture, then finish them up by leveling the string paths with a flat block and a straightedge, and blending in the ridges. It doesn't really take that long, because there's not a lot of material being removed.

I'm pretty sure there are some of the relatively more expensive basses (>2.5K) that don't have the string paths levelled. I have played few of those (won't mention any names) and can't get rid of the buzz no matter what I do, and the action was not even set to very low.

Thanks very2 much Bruce. I'm glad I asked those questions. :D:D:D I will put it into practice on my current builds.


Harry