Liability Insurance

[Xandrell]

OK, a couple of things apear to be being lost in the shuffle here. Who are they going to sue? The band? is the band a legal entity? I doubt it. So the attorney is going to invetigate to find the proper name and address of each member of the band. Hope they are residents in the same state so there are no juristictional issues and implead them while working on a contingency bassis? I don't think so.

The band doesn't have to be a legal entity to be sued. You can be sued personally and individually.

 

[12BitSlab]

OK, a couple of things apear to be being lost in the shuffle here. Who are they going to sue? The band? is the band a legal entity? I doubt it. So the attorney is going to invetigate to find the proper name and address of each member of the band. Hope they are residents in the same state so there are no juristictional issues and implead them while working on a contingency bassis? I don't think so.

Lawsuits aren't the only issue. Two years ago I spent $50,000 responding to a subpoena re: a lawsuit where my company was not even named. We merely did business with the company being sued.

 

[hermetic]

Insurance has got to be the biggest boondoggle ever foisted upon the foibles of mankind.

 

[Bassquest]

Forget the gig. It ain't worth it.

 

[BassUrges]

The band unquestionably is a legal entity: a general partnership. It can be sued in its own name and the partners (players) held personally liable.

I am a plaintiff's attorney. If someone comes to me and says they were injured by the band (like Great White's pyrotechnic disaster a while back) yes, I will find all of them and I will serve them and there will be no "jurisdictional issue." You played in this town, you have "minimum contacts" and you can answer for it in this town. If they truly have no assets, maybe not. But most people have a house, car, bass collection, whatever.

The real value of insurance from a possible defendant's perspective is they pay for your lawyer.

 

[Xandrell]

Insurance has got to be the biggest boondoggle ever foisted upon the foibles of mankind.

Some like peace of mind in case the house burns to the ground.

 

[PortlandBass77]

Nope. I have never heard of this and I wouldn't even consider getting liability service unless the band was my primary source of income.

My wife is a defense attorney specializing in accident liability. 38 years experience, long-time partner in the best firms in my area.

First, the presence or absence of insurance is not going to make you more or less of a target for a lawsuit. If you are a turnip with no material assets, then maybe you will get off the hook. But if you have material assets and decent income, and you can be even loosely connected to the claim of damage or injury, you can and probably will be named in any resulting lawsuit even if you don't have insurance.

Second, anyone in the vicinity of the accident who is in a position of authority, responsibility, or expertise can be named in a liability lawsuit even if they are only loosely connected to the accident. My wife has defended people who had absolutely nothing to do with the claim except they were a professional vendor in the area. In other words, if a guest gets hurt at the venue where you are performing, the injured person can name the venue and any vendors even remotely connected to the accident. There are few limits on who can be named in these kind of suits, and it then becomes your burden to prove you are not liable. If it directly involves your personnel or equipment, you will most certainly be named. Again, presence or absence of insurance has little to do with it, and your actual level of involvement in the accident itself has little to do with it. We live in a litigious society that has encouraged and supports this kind of lawsuit.

Finally, some venues ask that all vendors be insured for the exact reasons outlined above; to defray responsibility and liability. The more vendors who are insured, the less burden on the venue when an accident happens. For example, one of your light fixtures or a main speaker falls and injures a guest. Why should the venue be solely responsible? They shouldn't, and they have every right to expect other vendors to have some kind of liability coverage. I am also concerned about my band members being named in a suit if a guest got injured, even if my band mates had nothing to do with it. New Year's Eve we had a guest fall on the carpeted dance floor right in front of us. I think she got too close to a mic stand and tripped. Another guest further away tripped and fell, probably because of the carpeted surface (despite my warnings to the venue manager of the likelihood). Fortunately, they were both okay, but if they had been injured the venue and my entire band, individually, could have been named in any resulting lawsuit.

Beyond coverage limits, insurance companies usually also cover attorney fees and costs to defend you when you are named in a liability suit.

Professional liability coverage of up to $2,000,000.00 cost me only around $250.00 annually. Small price for me considering the fees I charge my clients. You can take a dump on insurance if you want, but being uninsured or under-insured frequently ruins lives, and that's a fact. Long-term injuries, pain and suffering, and lost earnings are no joke and quickly add up to enormous settlement amounts. People often get cleaned out and have to declare bankruptcy over it. I went without professional entertainment insurance for a long time, especially at the club/bar level, but for private/corporate/community/formal events, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

If this is a one-off for OP, it's a personal decision he and his mates need to make, and I'd understand if they passed on the gig.

And that pretty much sums up why the US legal system is awful....

 

[hotrodjohn]

i wonder if my personal umbrella policy would cover me individually if something happened at a gig

 

[electracoyote]

Nope. I have never heard of this and I wouldn't even consider getting liability service unless the band was my primary source of income.

Well, it was still only supplemental income for me at best, but I was charging clients around $1,500.00 on average for upscale gigs (split among six band members). I felt an annual $250.00 professional liability premium was a worthwhile investment and got us in the door at some of the venues my band wanted to play. I can totally understand a band not wanting to cut into their pay for one gig where insurance was required.

And that pretty much sums up why the US legal system is awful....

It's ridiculous. My wife just defended a boiler repairman in a boiler explosion case where a person got injured. Only problem: Her client had never touched or even been near the boiler in question. He had been on the property in the past servicing other boilers and had it all documented. Too bad buddy, you're a pro, you've been on the property, you must have had something to do with this boiler explosion. Crazy.

 

[electracoyote]

i wonder if my personal umbrella policy would cover me individually if something happened at a gig

With most carriers, it gets sticky if your endeavor has the semblance of a "business" or "service profession." So if there is any kind of compensation for your services, no matter how small, even if it can be asserted you are performing for promotion and marketing purposes, the typical homeowners policy won't cover related losses. You'd need a special rider added to your deck sheet, and with non-specialty companies, it can be very expensive.

When I was teaching private music lessons from my home my wife and I had a rider added to our homeowners policy. Good thing too, when my normally gentle Great Dane decided to lose his bloody mind and bite a parent of one of my students for no reason whatsoever. If it had been determined I was in the act of running my business, we would have been left high and dry by our homeowners insurer without that rider.

 

[BassUrges]

Her client had never touched or even been near the boiler in question.

And the injured party knew this or had access to the records before the suit, and knowingly filed it against an innocent part in bad faith? I hope your wife got sanctions and attorney's fees.

Far more likely someone sues everyone involved because they DON'T know who is responsible (and can't find out) and defendants get dropped as evidence comes in. Which is precisely why insurance is valuable in such a case--they pay a few grand for a lawyer, get you off, and don't blame you for it or raise your rates.

 

[electracoyote]

And the injured party knew this or had access to the records before the suit, and knowingly filed it against an innocent part in bad faith? I hope your wife got sanctions and attorney's fees.

As crazy as it sounds, it was headed to trial, but defendant's insurer paid plaintiff a $5,000.00 settlement to get it over. They would have paid my wife more in attorney fees and costs.

There were several other defendants, so it still went to trial, but my wife's client was dropped from the suit.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

What's the best liability insurance for Metal?

 

[Ric5]

Need some input on this. We are playing an outdoor event this summer opening for a larger act. The host is a Chamber of Commerce, it's a big 3 day Independence Day celebration. They are requiring that we carry liability insurance. We are a band that plays 30 gigs a year max, and we do not carry insurance as a band. Is this common?

What the bleep!!!

What could a band possible be liable for??? sucking? playing badly? singing off key?

The only thing I would consider insuring would be band equipment in case of theft

 

[Ric5]

Create a LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) for the band ... get contracts where the the band and not the individual is liable ... if the band gets sued then instantly dissolve the band and walk away

 

[gbrooding]

Thanks guys, appreciate the input. Eventhelper.com would run us $208 for the day. We'll just add this to our fee and everyone is happy. I think I will look into the professional liability premium that was mentioned above.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I am picturing the Far Side lawsuit scene. The attorney is wagging his finger at the musician in the dock. "This bassist made my client shake her hips so hard she tripped on the carpet and smashed her teeth on his mic stand, we demand $50,000 for dental work, and his phone number!"

 

[okcrum]

That coffee machine was busted, management knew about it and failed to fix it, and that woman had third degree burns and her damn labia were fused with her thigh.

That was not a superfluous lawsuit.

You could at least consult a search engine before trying to rewite history, in a case as well-documented as this.

There was nothing wrong with the coffee making machine.

"The jury found Mrs. Liebeck to be partially at fault for her injuries, reducing the compensation for her injuries accordingly." - every reference on this case

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Need some input on this. We are playing an outdoor event this summer opening for a larger act. The host is a Chamber of Commerce, it's a big 3 day Independence Day celebration. They are requiring that we carry liability insurance. We are a band that plays 30 gigs a year max, and we do not carry insurance as a band. Is this common?

Very common. You can get insurance per event, or for the year, you'll need to see what's available in your state. Very costly to go per event in the long run, but if it's just once or twice a year, that's probably the way to go.

Business liability is a reasonable expectation and a good thing to have, but he new scourge of the working musician is the "additional insured certificate." This is insurance COVERING THE VENUE, who didn't hire me in the first place, that you are expected to get, so of course, I pass the cost onto the client, which makes everyone thrilled, doesn't it. It's so ridiculous, I already have 1,000,000 worth of liability plus car insurance if I decide to drive into the foyer. Anyway, all insurance companies handle that differently so shop around.

 

[fhm555]

...If you are a turnip with no material assets, then maybe you will get off the hook...

A company i used to work for sponsored a team in the local community slow pitch softball league. I didn't play but would go watch them play from time to time. One of the teams was sponsored by a personal injury lawyer and his team jerseys had this emblazoned on the back.
"If you can't get blood from a turnip, put the turnip in jail"

As of libalility insurance, laws vary widely from state to state so make sure you are familiar with the laws in your state. I've worked for a trade show production company doing both public and industry only trade shows and i also worked co-producing some national level r/c car racing events. The trade show company generally got event liability through whatever company provided insurance to the venue, which made it much simpler because they were already familiar with the place and usually provided the best deal. In my home state, an event promoter is required to provide event coverage for all vendors so a portion of booth rental was earmarked for insurance and we covered all the vendors under a single policy. For public trade shows the venue provided liability coverage for attendees. In the other two states we did shows in, individual vendors had to submit individual proof of event insurance so it would be on file with the venue before that vendor was allowed in to set up.

Most of the r/c car races are done indoors in agricultural arenas that carry liability insurance covering their entire facility and grounds and they charged us the daily cost of that insurance for as many days as we use the facilities.

Before you lay out any dough, talk to the venue owners. They can tell you exactly what your insurance responsibility will be.