Double Bass light or heavy bow?

[jj.833]

Few months ago, I was given an old pernambucco bow from a retired friend. Compared to my main bow, also pernambuco, this new one is way heavier (and thicker). Apart from that, both bows are of similar quality, let's say "decent european factory bow ca 1980". I didn't weight it on the scales, but the difference is apparent on the first touch. I started to use the heavy bow for practising, calling it Big Bertha, and hoping that if I can bow a piece with this heavy thing, I can bow it with anything, which is good skill to have.

After few months, I am starting to like this heavy bow perhaps more than my lighter one. It might be because it is different from what I've been using for years. Or it might be because I need to use different thinking - I have to imagine the bowings more vividly before I perform them, which seems to add to the sound. I don't really need the heavier bow's ability to play louder.

I shal add that I practise almost exclusively with the bow, but I gig mostly plucked, as my major gigging is around jazz styles. So I don't have to thing about weight fatique as orchestral players perhaps have to do.

Seeing those carbon bows everywhere, I came to believe that everybody naturally prefers lighter bows, as there is no reason to do anything less easy than possible. I'm wondering about your experiences.

 

[Ric Vice]

You didn’t mention what style of bow you use. Since you are primarily a jazz bassist (I am as well) I make an educated guess and assume you use a German bow. If that’s the case, then having just purchased a bow from Canadian maker Bernard Walke it’s heavier than my Ary France Shop bow and pulls more volume among other vast improvements in tone quality, flexibility, and balance.

 

[AGCurry]

I don't have to thing about weight fatique as orchestral players perhaps have to do.

I don't think "weight fatigue" is a thing, unless there is perhaps arthritis in the right hand. Other parts of my body - including my brain - tire much sooner than my bowing arm or hand.

Others have said here that balance of the bow is a more important thing than weight, and I believe them.

 

[Co.]

Seeing those carbon bows everywhere, I came to believe that everybody naturally prefers lighter bows, as there is no reason to do anything less easy than possible. I'm wondering about your experiences.

Carbonfiber bows are usually not lighter than your typical wooden bow, the Arcus bows being the exception. Their popularity is due to their value for money, the Arcus bows again being the exception.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I’m just posting to say I’m interested in hearing this discussion from more experienced players and encourage people to participate in the poll. There’s currently only one vote.

Myself I’m undecided. I have a couple Vingo Rainbow Bouncy bows that’s are relatively light but I wonder if sometimes slightly heavier might be better for me.

 

[crd]

I prefer it to be well balanced. A balanced heavy bow can feel light in use. An unbalanced light bow can similarly feel heavy.

 

[groooooove]

100% depends on the bow

there are elegant examples of either. I've played light bows that pulled a huge sound, and heavy bows that sounded flimsy. either can feel clumsy in the hand if it's a poor quality stick.

assuming equal quality... meh. in-between i guess.

 

[JazznFunk]

Balance is more important than overall weight IMO. My slightly heavier Pernambuco bow I've had for 20+ years is very well balanced and has a dark tone that I love. My carbon fiber bows are slightly lighter overall, but still balanced, and I feel they are brighter and 'quicker' feeling in some instances. Which one I pick is dependent on what I'm playing.

 

[LaFaro01]

Perhaps you should take an view to the "New Dutch School" and their concept of heavy bows...

Double Bass Thread 'New Dutch School'

Jul 18, 2005

Has anybody read the article on Silvio Dalla Torre in the recent Double Bassist and if so, do you have any thoughts? Check out Invalid Link Removed for lots of interesting information. I found the idea of the (really) heavy bow interesting. I play with a 148 gm bow now and have often wondered if especially on the unwound gut that I play on, whether an even heavier bow would be better. I have never used a lighter bow that worked well for me. I find a heavier bow (all things considered including balance, etc.) starts and tracks on the string better, gives me a better tone, and is...

• Adrian Cho
• Replies: 3
• Forum: Orchestral Technique [DB]

There was an website of Silvio dalla Torre, which unfortuneately now is offline....

Home

Silvio Dalla Torre (Kontrabass) stammt aus einer deutsch-italienischen Familie und wurde in Kempten/Allgäu geboren. Er studierte an der Musikhochschule ...

web.archive.org

 

[trevcda]

I’m just posting to say I’m interested in hearing this discussion from more experienced players and encourage people to participate in the poll. There’s currently only one vote.

Myself I’m undecided. I have a couple Vingo Rainbow Bouncy bows that’s are relatively light but I wonder if sometimes slightly heavier might be better for me.

As am I. I purchased a pair of Scherl & Roth SR4432 3/4-size Carbon Fiber French Double Bass Bows after playing my EUB for about twenty seconds (utter newby here) because they were relatively inexpensive (might as well buy a backup!) and to see if I'd get any mileage out playing arco, given the material I was playing. I really never gave any thought to the weight of the bow. I've incorporated arco into a few tunes and other than a lack of bowing space in some venues which has made for some pretty comical moments while performing, I haven't noticed anything missing or the desire for additional performance. But you know the phrase, " you don't know what you don't know". It definitely applies here.

 

[bass player 53]

This YT video talks about bow placement and weight applied. It’s not directly addressing the actual weight of the bow, but it has obvious implications regarding the subject of a light or heavy bow.

 

[Wasnex]

I haven't gone down the bow-weight rabbit hole that much. IMHO you want the Goldilocks bow; not too heavy and not too light. Each person will have their own idea of Goldilocks.

During the few times I experimented, I tended to prefer a lighter bow as it was more responsive. However, if the bow is tool light it may bottom out when you need to play with force. So there can be a compromise between responsiveness and bottom out resistance.

To some extent, I believe balance is more important than weight.

 

[LouisF]

I'm a victim of the "weight fatigue" syndrome, with both arthritis and tendonitis in my hands and wrists (L&R). The Arcus bows (and the Rainbow bouncy) have kept me playing when I might have had to step aside. Having said that, I recently picked up a 124 gr. Kolstein Diamond stamp German bow with a Viennese frog (from @ the 70s or 80s I think) and I have been practicing at home with it because I love the sound it pulls from my bass! Could I go 2-3 hrs with it, as opposed to 20-30 minutes? Don't know yet, but might find out at a Disney Hall concert in June!!

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Haven't played enough other bows (or any "otherwise similar" bows, for that matter) to have a useful poll response. The Glasser fiberglass cello bow that came with the bass (which I learned to bow with for about a year) was lighter than my inexpensive CF French bass bow, and I certainly prefer the latter. I'd guess the Glasser German fiberglass (rescued) bass bow is heavier, but I can't stand the thing.

I think that's as much being used to playing French and making that work and finding the different mechanics of the German hold utterly non-intuitive as being a cheap fiberglass bow, so after having tried it for a while I've been contentedly playing my CF French Bass bow for 8 years now rather than thinking a better German bow would magically make the mechanics intuitive. Likewise I'm not under the impression that a bow costing 10 or 100 times what my bow cost will make me play 10 or 100 times better - and I'm not discontented with my bow, so I'm not shopping.

According to an old post of mine from 8 years ago, I measured the CF at 133 grams. I find the balance decent (again, I have limited options to compare it with. But it feels fine, not irritatingly out of whack either direction.)

 

[JazznFunk]

Haven't played enough other bows (or any "otherwise similar" bows, for that matter) to have a useful poll response. The Glasser fiberglass cello bow that came with the bass (which I learned to bow with for about a year) was lighter than my inexpensive CF French bass bow, and I certainly prefer the latter. I'd guess the Glasser German fiberglass (rescued) bass bow is heavier, but I can't stand the thing.

I think that's as much being used to playing French and making that work and finding the different mechanics of the German hold utterly non-intuitive as being a cheap fiberglass bow, so after having tried it for a while I've been contentedly playing my CF French Bass bow for 8 years now rather than thinking a better German bow would magically make the mechanics intuitive. Likewise I'm not under the impression that a bow costing 10 or 100 times what my bow cost will make me play 10 or 100 times better - and I'm not discontented with my bow, so I'm not shopping.

I had a cheap Glasser German bow that I ended up with as a freebie somewhere along the line and absolutely hated it. Those are more BSOs (bow shaped objects) than anything else. Not really capable of many subtleties.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Myself I’m undecided. I have a couple Vingo Rainbow Bouncy bows that’s are relatively light but I wonder if sometimes slightly heavier might be better for me.

Easy enough to temporarily add some weight if you want to experiment.

 

[Jason Sypher]

A good bow makes you forget about weight and there are good bows at every weight. Try as many as possible. Does the bow give you what you want? Does it behave predictably? Is it the sound you hear in your head? Experienced players might be reticent to answer your poll because the question is flawed. I ended up with a lighter bow because it felt lively but I didn’t realize it was light at the time.

 

[SAlcott]

I'm fortunate to have two really good bows. The lighter by 20 grams pulls a bigger sound than its heavier counterpart. My teacher says this is because I use the weight of my arm rather than the weight of the bow. You can add arm weight to a light bow when needed, but you can't subtract from a heavier one.

 

[the_Ryan]

I was trying one of Bernard Walke’s Joel Quarrington bows for an extended amount of time, which is significantly longer and heavier (I think around 170g) than a standard German bow and while I didn’t really get fatigue from playing it, it was definitely too much for my Laborie to handle.

The balance of a bow I think is more important than the actual weight since it affects the perceived weight in the hand. With bass bows the main balance issue is usually a bow that is tip-heavy (particularly with French bows, but it can be a problem with German bows too), which will make the bow feel much heavier and “clumsier” than the weight would suggest. My 153g Dölling is balanced well-enough that it does not feel like 153g while playing.

I use my 128g Pfretzschner more though since it’s a better orchestral bow (I use the Dölling for solo playing), but it’s less about the weight and more because it’s less cambered and allows for more variance in how on or off the string a bow stroke is, whereas the Dölling is aggressively cambered and has a very rigid stick, which makes being on or off the string much more binary.

 

[HaltheAerialist]

Up until 8 months ago, I played with a Kolstein Oval Stamp bow that my parents bought for me in 1988. It weighed 140 grams and was very well balanced. It pulled a big, rich sound, and I was very happy with it. As I read about carbon fiber bows over the past few years, I finally became curious enough to try a couple. I got the Arcus S7 and S8 Silver on trial. They are about an inch longer than the Kolstein, but significantly lighter at 119 grams. They too are very well balanced (as you would expect for the price). The sound quality that I got from the S7 was comparable to the Kolstein. The S8 drew a noticeably richer sound; not a night and day difference, but enough to hear it. What really convinced me to keep the S8 and sell the Kolstein was not so much the sound, but the weight. I have much more control with the lighter bow, and I can play more articulately. I had the bows for 7 days for the trial, but I very quickly decided that I preferred the lighter weight enough to spend the money on the S8. The Kolstein plays a little louder, but the articulation and greater control of the Arcus are much more important to me than a little volume.

Based on the comments so far, there is a big variety of preferences when it comes to bows. I'm strong and very fit, but I'm a small person, so maybe that factors into my preference. (I prefer small basses too.) I sold my Kolstein on the classifieds here, and the new owner is very happy with it. Maybe the type of music and playing style affects bow preferences as well, but I would choose my lighter bow for anything that I played.