Lightest Flats?

[onosson]

Do you want the "lightest" "lowest tension" strings, then buy a 5-string set of E-C, dump the E string and put the A string in the E place, etc. In the double bass world on the other side of this forum, this is called "bumping." You will get an effective set that has about 20 pounds of tension per string. BUT...you will have no tone, no consistency, no stability in tuning, and everything will pull sharp on the frets.

I just want to comment on this part, because I have 2 basses set up like this, different reasons, and I only partially agree with your description. The first bass is a Fender Jazz with a snapped truss rod. You're right that there is a loss of consistency, some loss of stability in tuning, and things do pull sharp, especially at the deepest part of the neck bow. But this would be the case - and actually worse - with a heavier gauge set of strings, because those issues are caused by the truss rod factor, and not the strings.

My other bass is a Modulus with a graphite reinforced neck, which is dead straight with or without tension on the neck. I decided to try the detuned set on this bass exactly because it was so straight, and would be able to provide consistent action with either a heavy or light gauge set of strings. And my experience has been excellent since doing this, somewhere around 2 years ago. I use this bass frequently, and the tone is excellent - in fact it is my preferred bass for most situations. No issues with tuning at all anywhere on the neck, and this is a 24-fret neck.

In the end, from my experience if you have a neck that isn't unduly affected by lightening the tension, this method isn't necessarily going to cause any sorts of problems. If your neck isn't very straight however (even when adjusted to accommodate whatever tension is on it), or like the OP it cannot be straightened, then you will definitely have some problems - but those are mostly a function of the neck and not the strings per se.

 

[iiipopes]

My other bass is a Modulus with a graphite reinforced neck, which is dead straight with or without tension on the neck.

You are lucky to have such a fine neck. I agree this obviates many issues with string tension, intonation, and stability. 99%+ of players out there don't have this luxury, and deal with conventional wood/truss rod necks, hence my post.

 

[bearfoot]

Since this is a bass you want to gig with, may as well fix it. I would just replace the neck completely, and hang the old one on the wall somewhere. Or keep it by my bedside to club home invaders with. No one expects the bass neck.

 

[JimmyM]

Since this is a bass you want to gig with, may as well fix it. I would just replace the neck completely, and hang the old one on the wall somewhere. Or keep it by my bedside to club home invaders with. No one expects the bass neck.

I have to agree. Why half ass it? You can still use the super super lights.

 

[negriljerry]

OP here
Um...actually I appreciate the variety of opinions and suggestions, including the "lightest shoe for a broken leg" comparison. The ol' P/J is the seldom played back bench ax, while my other 3 get all the gig time. I didn't mean to provoke such passion and gnashing of teeth.
But I'll check out the LaBellas, I promise.

Also my dog has a message for yours:
"Look after your bass-person, he's obviously over stressing"

 

[JimmyM]

OP here
Um...actually I appreciate the variety of opinions and suggestions, including the "lightest shoe for a broken leg" comparison. The ol' P/J is the seldom played back bench ax, while my other 3 get all the gig time. I didn't mean to provoke such passion and gnashing of teeth.
But I'll check out the LaBellas, I promise.

Also my dog has a message for yours:
"Look after your bass-person, he's obviously over stressing"

Suit yourself. You can keep it broken if you want. It affects my life in zero ways.

 

[trothwell]

In terms of the actual tension (as in pulling weight), the La Bella Low Tension Flats (42-100, 134.9 lbs.) are lighter than the TI Jazz Flats (43-100, 140.2 lbs.)

How came you by this information?

 

[michael_t]

How came you by this information?

TI JF344 = Just Strings (under Description tab): Link Removed

La Bella LTF = La Bella website: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[trothwell]

TI JF344 = Just Strings (under Description tab): Link Removed

La Bella LTF = La Bella website: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

That was ... easier than I thought. Apparently my Google searching was not up to par. Thanks!

 

[michael_t]

That was ... easier than I thought. Apparently my Google searching was not up to par. Thanks!

Some string companies treat tension figures like some "hidden treasure" or "secret recipe".

 

[trothwell]

Some string companies treat tension figures like some "hidden treasure" or "secret recipe".

I was wanting a set of roundwounds with the same tension as TI flats. Ordered a light set of round core Boomers, less than a 1lb difference.

Edit: but I digress. This thread is about flatwounds. Carry on.

 

[negriljerry]

Probably not a popular opinion, but these still feel stiffer than I'd like compared to TIJF's. All personal preference of course.

I ordered the LaBella LTs, we'll see how they do on my oldest bass pal

 

[negriljerry]

I ordered the LaBella LTs, we'll see how they do on my oldest bass pal

.....and now I just ordered a set of LaBella 760FX's, they might be an even better fit with a .096 E.
Yesterday I gigged with a guitarist front guy who solos forever on fast blues stuff, my old hands started to numb out. That was on my Jazz with older D'Addario half rounds, which feel more like 1/3 round. I'll try a set of the LaBella on that one too. I've only been actively playing bass for 22 years (guitar for 55 years).

Thanks all for the comments, including the highly entertaining snark-isms

 

[ixlramp]

In terms of the actual tension (as in pulling weight), the La Bella Low Tension Flats (42-100, 134.9 lbs.) are lighter than the TI Jazz Flats (43-100, 140.2 lbs.), although the TIJF's are the more "flexible" of the two.
The OP is more concerned about the weight on the neck than the flexibility.

Good and relevant post.

In tension chart , LTF4a are lower than Ti flat. But, in real life are opposite, LTF4a stiffer than Ti flat.

The OP wants the lowest tension, not the lowest stiffness, see above.

Without any doubts TI JF344

The LTFs have lower tension, see above.

At the moment I have 2 basses, one with TIJF's and one with LTFF's. The TI's feel waaayyy looser as far as playing them.

Yes, due to being more flexible, but the LTFs have lower tension, see above.

With all due respect to the above: they are all wrong. The best lowest tension flats, because they are consistent, won't turn your fingers black, even toned, and have greater longetivity:
La Bella Low Tension Flats. Period.

These are not actually particularly low tension being 42-100, there are 30-85 roundwound sets. The OP wants very low tension.
It is possible to go far lower tension than 42-100 and still have a well functioning set.
The narrower range of gauges of flatwound sets is distorting people's perception of what is 'low tension', 42-100 is only a 'slightly light' set.

Do you want the "lightest" "lowest tension" strings, then buy a 5-string set of E-C, dump the E string and put the A string in the E place, etc. In the double bass world on the other side of this forum, this is called "bumping." You will get an effective set that has about 20 pounds of tension per string. BUT...you will have no tone, no consistency, no stability in tuning, and everything will pull sharp on the frets.

Depends on the set but typically it will be more than 20 pounds. Typical gauge ADGC strings work well at EADG with none of the problems you claim.
Typical ADGC gauges: 85 65 45 32, results in roughly a 30-85 set, which is sold by Rotosound, and is not much different to 30-90 sets which are popular extra light sets with none of the problems you claim.

 

[ixlramp]

so today I'm going back to the Rotosound Funkmaster crazy lights

I ordered the LaBella LTs

and now I just ordered a set of LaBella 760FX's, they might be an even better fit with a .096 E.

I suspect you may find these 2 flatwound sets are still not low enough in tension, 39-96 is also not particularly low tension.
Assuming you mean 30-90 for the Funkmasters, that is far lower tension. If those seem about right for your bass you need to buy flats in roughly the same gauges. If no set exists (which is likely), use ADGC strings.

 

[iiipopes]

Depends on the set but typically it will be more than 20 pounds. Typical gauge ADGC strings work well at EADG with none of the problems you claim.
Typical ADGC gauges: 85 65 45 32, results in roughly a 30-85 set, which is sold by Rotosound, and is not much different to 30-90 sets which are popular extra light sets with none of the problems you claim.

I stand by my post, because I have done the math. Remember, tension is NOT linear. Tension varies as the square of the mass of the string. So a string 1/2 the mass, which may or may not be, but is close enough for these discussion purposes, will have about 1/2 the diameter, and will have 1/4 the tension for the given scale length and pitch. Do the math as I have done. And consult the manufacturer's tension charts as I have done. For example, a GHS Super Steels 80 A string has about 41 pounds of tension at A. When you drop its tuning to E, the chart shows about 23 pounds of tension. I stand by my original post.

 

[ixlramp]

Tension varies as the square of the mass of the string.

From physics, and stated on the D'Addario and GHS tension documents: T = U * (2 * L * F) ^ 2 / 386.4 where U is the 'unit mass' (usually called 'unit weight'): the mass of unit length of string (1 inch), so T is proportional to U, not the square of U.

So a string 1/2 the mass, which may or may not be, but is close enough for these discussion purposes, will have about 1/2 the diameter,

Actually not so, unit mass is proportional to the square of the diameter, because the cross-sectional area of a cylinder is proportional to the square of the diameter.

Area of a circle = PI * R ^ 2
Volume of cylinder = PI * R ^ 2 * L
Mass = volume * density = PI * R ^ 2 * L * D
For 'unit mass', L = 1. Density D can be considered roughly constant.
So unit mass is proportional to the square of the radius/diameter.

For example, a GHS Super Steels 80 A string has about 41 pounds of tension at A. When you drop its tuning to E, the chart shows about 23 pounds of tension.

Yes, sorry, you wrote "about 20 pounds" and i took that to mean 'very close to 20' when i was expecting around 25.
I was also thinking of larger gauges like .085 A and .065 D. It was wrong for me to take issue with "about 20 pounds" as that is reasonable.

Anyway, the tension drop caused by detuning a string by 5 semitones is best done by considering a change in frequency F:
T is proportional to F ^ 2
Tension multiplier = (2 ^ (-5 / 12)) ^ 2 = 0.56
So tension drops to 56%. 40 drops to roughly 23.

 

[ixlramp]

negriljerry,
As you are concerned with the force the strings exert on the neck, you are concerned with 'tension'.

'Tension' is a force and that word only ever means 'how tight the string is', it also means all of these: 'how tightly the string is being stretched by the tuner', 'the force exerted on the string by the tuner' and 'the force exerted on the tuner (and therefore the neck) by the string'.
'Tension' is not stiffness/flexibility, but is very often confused with that on this forum.

Although there is some variation between brands and string types ...
For roundwounds and flatwounds, the tension is fairly reliably determined by the gauge.
So keep in mind the effect your 30-90 set had on your bass and adjust the gauges accordingly when choosing the flatwound gauges.

 

[iiipopes]

From physics, and stated on the D'Addario and GHS tension documents: T = U * (2 * L * F) ^ 2 / 386.4 where U is the 'unit mass' (usually called 'unit weight'): the mass of unit length of string (1 inch), so T is proportional to U, not the square of U.

Actually not so, unit mass is proportional to the square of the diameter, because the cross-sectional area of a cylinder is proportional to the square of the diameter.

Area of a circle = PI * R ^ 2
Volume of cylinder = PI * R ^ 2 * L
Mass = volume * density = PI * R ^ 2 * L * D
For 'unit mass', L = 1. Density D can be considered roughly constant.
So unit mass is proportional to the square of the radius/diameter.

Yes, sorry, you wrote "about 20 pounds" and i took that to mean 'very close to 20' when i was expecting around 25.
I was also thinking of larger gauges like .085 A and .065 D. It was wrong for me to take issue with "about 20 pounds" as that is reasonable.

Anyway, the tension drop caused by detuning a string by 5 semitones is best done by considering a change in frequency F:
T is proportional to F ^ 2
Tension multiplier = (2 ^ (-5 / 12)) ^ 2 = 0.56
So tension drops to 56%. 40 drops to roughly 23.

Thank you for agreeing that my statement about the drop in tension is reasonable. I still disagree that diameter has anything to do with mass or tension, although it may have to do with pitch, assuming constant mass for ΔD.
Mass of a Cylinder

I don't know where D'Addario came up with "unit mass," except as a way to compare string-to-string, as there still has to be an r^2 variable in there somewhere to come up with tension. It is probably because since guitar strings are not solid cylinders, that the actual mass has to be measured taking into account the space, however small, between cover wraps of the strings, which causes variance of mass compared to the diameters of different strings. Unit mass does explain the variances in tension of the strings, so that a string with r radius is not exactly half the tension of a similar string with a cross sectional area of 2(r^2) with L constant due to the spaces causing variance of mass compared to the theoretical equations for solid cylinders.

 

[negriljerry]

Probably not a popular opinion, but these still feel stiffer than I'd like compared to TIJF's. All personal preference of course.

I finally sprung for two sets of Labella's, the LTs and 760FX Deep Talkin'. Put the the LTs on the old P/J and viola! Perfect, the lower tension corrected the bowing, and what a huge difference in feel and tone from the Fender 9050s I've been using for so many years! No sense of "floppiness" at all. Worth the extra bucks, bigtime. Gonna put the 760s on my Jazz in place of the D'Addadrio half rounds I've been using. BTW although the 760s are actually thinner than the LTs Labella confirms that the LTs are lighter tension due to the round vs hex core.