My apologies.. I always thought everything was fundamentally and inexplicably connected.
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Double Bass Lightness of touch (DB forum thread)
- Thread starter Chris Fitzgerald
- Start date
My apologies.. I always thought everything was fundamentally and inexplicably connected.
Actually I take that back.. Chris the OP who started this whole thread talks about the soul and spirit and in his very first sentence and mentions these things constantly.. because he knows full well they are connected and discussion of one leads inexorably to discussion of the other. Despite your view that they are entirely disconnected and any mention of such is to be confined to: "Yeah, soul is covered in another thread"
I’m afraid it appears it is your thinking that’s amiss here, not mine, and the moment you seperate your touch/feel from your spirit you reduce the entire process to mere physiological mechanics. That won't get one very far any more than seeking to master the perfect brush stroke will make you paint a Mona Lisa.
'Lightness of Touch' is about Lightness of Being... and a whole lot more. The arm with all its various leveraged attachments is the least part of the equation.
Attachments
Will it help that I tried twice to add a smiley face?
Yes, of course it's all connected through the soul - and your enthusiasm is awesome, as is your reported ability to make a nice sound right away... You will learn the sound you make in your practice room, or neighbors house, or... will vary, and just when you're feeling some confidence and consistency in some or all those sounds often they will get buried or change significantly in a group setting - unless your sound is going to rely largely upon amplification. You say you had a quartet playing jazz guitar for 7 years. Maybe see if your neighbor can have you sit in with his group and play his bass for a tune? It will be cool to get your observations if / when you are playing with a loud guitar player.
This thread gets into some wonderful nuances of touch and sound from very experienced bass players. Regarding your right thumb - looks good - get to Christian McBride’s tutorial on that in the video you referenced, as well as Chris Fitzgerald, et al
Welcome to the Double Bass community.
Yes, of course it's all connected through the soul - and your enthusiasm is awesome, as is your reported ability to make a nice sound right away... You will learn the sound you make in your practice room, or neighbors house, or... will vary, and just when you're feeling some confidence and consistency in some or all those sounds often they will get buried or change significantly in a group setting - unless your sound is going to rely largely upon amplification. You say you had a quartet playing jazz guitar for 7 years. Maybe see if your neighbor can have you sit in with his group and play his bass for a tune? It will be cool to get your observations if / when you are playing with a loud guitar player.
This thread gets into some wonderful nuances of touch and sound from very experienced bass players. Regarding your right thumb - looks good - get to Christian McBride’s tutorial on that in the video you referenced, as well as Chris Fitzgerald, et al
Welcome to the Double Bass community.
I think it goes without saying that everything we do is connected however, for the purposes of study I find it imperative to isolate and compartmentalize in order to better reach my goals. I did speak like you quite a bit when I was a younger player (I’m not assuming you are young) whereas passion and communication of my inner feelings through the expression of double bass playing was tantamount to my mission and well-being. That did get me so far, my music was always felt and people told me so. I think of that as soul or simply artistic communication. But back at home I still needed to figure out how to play more in tune, have my pitches better discerned, deepen my sense of time and smooth out my bow changes. This work was not dispassionate but heavily reliant on observation, repetition, cause and effect, criticism etc. As time wore on I no longer concerned myself with the soul of my playing because it was already there no matter what I did and more often concerned myself with the mechanics, sound shaping, phrasing, intent and consistency.
Apparently, you only need to join a Dojo and watch a bunch of Bruce Lee Movies....
Sheeesh...Some of the opinions and advice in this thread are both Spiritually, and Bassically, Bankrupt.
IMFO, of course.
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Chuck Rainey once told me that when he shook Christian McBrides hand, it was like shaking hands with a tree. Apparently a very powerful man.
I dunno about the whole big guy/big sound thing. Reggie Workman is not large and a joke told about him - not in front of him! - is that he plays so strong that he makes pianos sound out of tune. One of my favorites, BTW, and for some reason an overlooked cat in great bass player discussions. I think he'd take exception to the petting a cat thing. I once saw him break a Spiro E.
I met Christian McBride briefly in college a couple of times. He is certainly a powerfully built guy, but not that big. I seem to recall him being slightly shorter than me, so around 6ft. I think if you put him under a shrink ray and made him 5ft, he would still find a way to pull a big sound without over exerting himself.
I also met Linda Oh, and she performed on my (well, the school's) bass. She was only in her mid 20s at the time, and despite being a small fraction of Christian's size, she got a really great sound. Maybe not Christian McBride big, but I attribute that mostly to personal taste/style, experience, etc. It was a nice, big, fat sound as best as I can remember; one that I think Ray Brown himself would be proud of.
Another player who comes to mind--but is a bit off topic since he's a classical player, sorry--is James VanDemark. He's a small guy and gets a f---ing huge sound of the bass, anyone's bass for that matter.
So suffice it to say that I don't think physical size or strength is all that important. With proper technique, it really shouldn't take that much force or energy (I mean that literally, in physics terms) to get a nice big sound. Now, I do take issue with the "petting the cat," barely caressing the strings approach, but you sure as heck shouldn't be wrecking your hands trying to get a good sound. Just my 2 cents.
I also met Linda Oh, and she performed on my (well, the school's) bass. She was only in her mid 20s at the time, and despite being a small fraction of Christian's size, she got a really great sound. Maybe not Christian McBride big, but I attribute that mostly to personal taste/style, experience, etc. It was a nice, big, fat sound as best as I can remember; one that I think Ray Brown himself would be proud of.
Another player who comes to mind--but is a bit off topic since he's a classical player, sorry--is James VanDemark. He's a small guy and gets a f---ing huge sound of the bass, anyone's bass for that matter.
So suffice it to say that I don't think physical size or strength is all that important. With proper technique, it really shouldn't take that much force or energy (I mean that literally, in physics terms) to get a nice big sound. Now, I do take issue with the "petting the cat," barely caressing the strings approach, but you sure as heck shouldn't be wrecking your hands trying to get a good sound. Just my 2 cents.
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^^^^This.
^^^Also, this.
I talk a lot in my teaching about the difference between assessment and judgement. IMO, the former is helpful and the latter usually destructive. When you make an assessment - and I don’t mind using the word dispassionate for it - you are simply identifying an area for potential improvement. As my old Yoda teacher used to say, “what would you say to yourself if you were a student who was coming to you as a teacher for help, and how would you say it?”
Over decades of teaching, I’ve tried to emulate her brutal-honesty-without-judgement strategy, since I think most students actually want to hear the truth at some level. She was a master of the “Good. Now, even better,…” approach.
@bassically_eli +1 re: Linda Oh. Also Kristin Korb, and Lorraine Campet on the arco side of things. But I attribute this in part to their great skill in maximizing their technical potential to exert force and leverage from a small frame. But any way you slice it, they are all amazing!
That's exactly what I was getting at. It's more or less the definition of (good) technique, even if that's not always explained to students. And everyone has to work on it, even the big guys.
FYI - Yesterday, Dec.3, 2022, marked the 13th anniversary of the OP's post, originally posted Dec.3, 2009.
Let's hope he (Chris Fitz....) has found some helpful information in the 12 pages of responses.
Thx.
Let's hope he (Chris Fitz....) has found some helpful information in the 12 pages of responses.
Thx.
Right. But the big guys have what is called in golf a “high handicap” by comparison. In other words, Linda Oh has to be a lot more calibrated and efficient than a 200+ pound player with a large frame. She has to play much better to get a comparable result. Which she absolutely does!
I think it’s been great, and a subject that is worth checking in on over time. Especially since it involves the aging process we all face if we’re lucky.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Probably more important as I approach 70 than it was when I was younger - especially if I want to continue playing with others.
Some time ago I have been to a matinee with Schubert Lieder; piano & tenor. The singer was not loud, but his voice was everywhere in the room, so much that I saw the dustball in the corner moving.
Good singers (actors/speakers) and wind players know well how to use resonances (the bodies and the rooms) for projection of the sound making vibrations that move those molecules in the air. I guess the trick is to get everything to build loops where all the involved elements are enforcing each other. I believe something similar is valid for string instruments too. For a big sound (and to mean more than just “loud”) you have to get to most (and nice) vibrations possible on your instrument and synchronize with the rooms resonance. Some even do believe that your own body (relaxation = open to flow with) plays a major role in that process.
And yes, you can also choke the vibrations hitting too hard, using too much force in the wrong places (moments of sound production). It’s all about finding ways to trigger the “right” vibrations, those that build up on themselves and grow and grow from the instrument into the room and back again.
Good singers (actors/speakers) and wind players know well how to use resonances (the bodies and the rooms) for projection of the sound making vibrations that move those molecules in the air. I guess the trick is to get everything to build loops where all the involved elements are enforcing each other. I believe something similar is valid for string instruments too. For a big sound (and to mean more than just “loud”) you have to get to most (and nice) vibrations possible on your instrument and synchronize with the rooms resonance. Some even do believe that your own body (relaxation = open to flow with) plays a major role in that process.
And yes, you can also choke the vibrations hitting too hard, using too much force in the wrong places (moments of sound production). It’s all about finding ways to trigger the “right” vibrations, those that build up on themselves and grow and grow from the instrument into the room and back again.
Practical wisdom with just the right amount of esoterica (for my taste) sprinkled in. Well done.
I tell ya, the best trumpet players I’ve ever played with never went past mf, but always managed to fill the room/mix with just the right amount of sound/energy. There’s a sweet spot in every context for sure, and it’s easy to ‘over-blow’ it - even on bass, I reckon.
In 1991 I worked with an interdisciplinary performance group in Vancouver called "Jumpstart!".
I was an actor.
One of the ensemble members was an opera singer - Fides Krucker.
Before rehearsal one morning, we were all warming up in the rehearsal room.
All of a sudden the space was filled with this enormous sound - huge, loud but in the best way, everywhere all at once.
I turned around and there was Fides, standing there grounded and relaxed. Her mouth was open, but I swear it was as if the sound was coming from all around her, and triggering every molecule in the room - just like the singer you describe.
And that was just one note during warmup.
I know it was technique, but it seemed like magic.
Never heard anything like it before or since.
Yes. I'm an opera buff, and the example of those singers who can fill a room without sounding strained is the key. Getting the top of the bass to vibrate freely, not forcing it to vibrate and thus choking it is the way to go. It's not lightness, but it is relaxed. If your hands hurt, you're doing something wrong. The bass wants to vibrate. Small people who get big sounds aren't overcoming a problem, they're naturally eliminating a problem. Doug Watkins is a great example of this relaxed approach - not that he's small, I have no idea of his size. When you listen to him in the pre amp days playing with guys like Blakey, his sound is always there but never muscled and barky.
