Line level to mic level

[seanm]

The lead singer used to give me a mic input... now he is giving me a line level input from an amp. I want to still use my mic mechanic. So I did a test at home with the following setup trying to get gig levels (no speakers attached to mixer):

line level input => Countryman 85 set on speaker => mic mechanic => mixer

I tested by running output from another mixer to try to mimic gig level inputs. Without the mic mechanic it worked, but I had everything maxed out. The mic mechanic seems to have a lot of gain to compensate for the loss of the DI. Can anybody think of reasons this might not work?

<mini rant>One of the problems with doing sound for a band is no chance to test things at gig volumes.... except at gigs. You have one song (so about 3-4 minutes) to get everything working. Very little time to experiment.</mini rant>

Not the end of the world if it doesn't work. I can go back to the old nanocompressor. It is just more work setting the threshold right.

 

[Geri O]

First, back everything down considerably and use the Countryman switched to pickup. That speaker setting is a hellacious pad. It will easily handle a line level input on the pickup setting.

And see what happens...

 

[moody]

What signal are you getting from the lead singer? Is he going mic to a powered wedge or something?

Could he be trusted with control of the mic mechanic?

 

[seanm]

First, back everything down considerably and use the Countryman switched to pickup. That speaker setting is a hellacious pad. It will easily handle a line level input on the pickup setting.

And see what happens...

Thanks, I'll try that.

 

[seanm]

What signal are you getting from the lead singer? Is he going mic to a powered wedge or something?

Could he be trusted with control of the mic mechanic?

He is using a small combo amp as a monitor. It has both a mic and line in, so he plugs both the mic and his guitar into the amp. The amp has a proper line level out and not a speaker out. He provides that to the mixer.

Not sure I could convince him to change his setup. Might be worth a try. But I already have a problem with the wildly different gains I get at every gig. Not sure YAGS (Yet Another Gain Stage) is a good idea.

 

[moody]

Sounds like you need a splitter of some kind before his vocals hit the amp.

 

[seanm]

Sounds like you need a splitter of some kind before his vocals hit the amp.

You may be right. I may also be over-thinking this. Before I got the new mains I had a lot of problems with getting the vocals loud enough without feedback. A compressor (I went through a few) was a god send.

However, the last couple of gigs have been fine. The mixer shows red more than I like, but I have not heard clipping. The problem is I can't be in front of the speakers all the time to hear if they are clipping. One of the disadvantages of mixing from stage.

I know you shouldn't EQ with your eyes, but seeing no (or very little) red lights gives me a warm fuzzy. But I also know that the PA can go pretty deep into the red without clipping.

Maybe the best solution is to wait. If it becomes a problem I always have the tools with me. That would be the best time to say "If you want people to hear you, you need to put this before the amp". My goal with this is to reduce my sound guy role so I can concentrate on playing bass.

 

[moody]

You may be right. I may also be over-thinking this. Before I got the new mains I had a lot of problems with getting the vocals loud enough without feedback. A compressor (I went through a few) was a god send.

I am surprised. Compressors aren't designed to help with feedback in any way and are actually more likely to make it worse.
Front of house volume should not be a major feedback issue

If their is feedback from your singers semi vocal guitar amplifier then I hate to say but that is his issue. He has decided to tackle that issue his own way and will now have to deal with it.

I would definitely get back to basics and look at the quality of your equipment. For example, a good monitor wedge and a good microphone are a lot less likely to feedback and a lot less likely to need additional aids to sound good. The mains on your average small gig do not have to be as good quality as the monitors.

 

[seanm]

I am surprised. Compressors aren't designed to help with feedback in any way and are actually more likely to make it worse.
Front of house volume should not be a major feedback issue

If their is feedback from your singers semi vocal guitar amplifier then I hate to say but that is his issue. He has decided to tackle that issue his own way and will now have to deal with it.

I would definitely get back to basics and look at the quality of your equipment. For example, a good monitor wedge and a good microphone are a lot less likely to feedback and a lot less likely to need additional aids to sound good. The mains on your average small gig do not have to be as good quality as the monitors.

The singer is *very* peaky. So by using a compressor as a peak leveler I could increase the volume without overloading the mixer... if that makes sense.

 

[moody]

The singer is *very* peaky. So by using a compressor as a peak leveler I could increase the volume without overloading the mixer... if that makes sense.

As a limiter, no makeup gain, it won't add feedback, but it will mean the peaks of your signal are cut taking down the average level. Your singer would really have to be loud enough at the average level without the peaks. The moment you have to pull up the gain to make up for the peaks being limited you add to the potential of feedback.

Try other things first, move your speakers, move your mics, cut the lows from the vocal signal, 31 band eq and get rid of the feedback frequency.

 

[moody]

do you compress live vocals? | TalkBass.com

 

[seanm]

As a limiter, no makeup gain, it won't add feedback, but it will mean the peaks of your signal are cut taking down the average level. Your singer would really have to be loud enough at the average level without the peaks. The moment you have to pull up the gain to make up for the peaks being limited you add to the potential of feedback.

Try other things first, move your speakers, move your mics, cut the lows from the vocal signal, 31 band eq and get rid of the feedback frequency.

Singer is very loud. When other people try to use his mic you can't hear them at all.

 

[moody]

Singer is very loud. When other people try to use his mic you can't hear them at all.

You're lucky then. Surprised you had issues with feedback at all.

 

[JohnMCA72]

He is using a small combo amp as a monitor. It has both a mic and line in, so he plugs both the mic and his guitar into the amp. The amp has a proper line level out and not a speaker out. He provides that to the mixer.

Not sure I could convince him to change his setup. Might be worth a try. But I already have a problem with the wildly different gains I get at every gig. Not sure YAGS (Yet Another Gain Stage) is a good idea.

So you're getting submix of guitar & vocal on 1 channel? That doesn't sound very optimal.

 

[Slapstyle]

cheap behringer direct box will take the xlr and split it to an xlr out for your PA feed and 1/4" for the amp.

 

[seanm]

So you're getting submix of guitar & vocal on 1 channel? That doesn't sound very optimal.

It isn't optimal, but it makes the lead singer happy.

I really appreciate all the replies. I have decided to just forget about compression for now unless it becomes a problem again. Anything that cuts down on setup/teardown is a good thing!

 

[seanm]

Just an update. Another outdoor gig: went really well. No compression on the lead singer's output. Next gig will be indoors so we will see how that goes.