Live Sound "BASICS", basic being the key word, need help!

[Zooberwerx]

I see. So maybe it will be a better investment to buy a mixing board than a second amp like I was planning.
So any cheap mixing board will do or do I need one that specifically matches my amp.

Thank you.

Yes, any affordable mixer should do the trick and would be a vast improvement over your present set-up.

I do recall seeing a powered speaker (make / model?) that would accept a mic input without the need for an external line-level source. Don't know if it had a resident mic preamp on board or what. Kind of a neat concept, though, especially for public speaking: throw one on the table, plug in to wall outlet, attach mic and you're good to go.

Riis

 

[modulusman]

Most of the powered speakers I have worked with are not designed to accept a mic/instrument level (~-60dB) signal even though they have XLR (balanced) inputs. They expect to see a line level (~0dB) signal. If that is the case with the one you are trying to use, if you plug a mic in and turn it all the way up, it will produce sound but at a very low volume.

My Yamaha DXRs accept mic level and so do My JBL PRX 500 series.

 

[kabacho]

he comes over without any gear to check it out

Yes, any affordable mixer should do the trick and would be a vast improvement over your present set-up.

I do recall seeing a powered speaker (make / model?) that would accept a mic input without the need for an external line-level source. Don't know if it had a resident mic preamp on board or what. Kind of a neat concept, though, especially for public speaking: throw one on the table, plug in to wall outlet, attach mic and you're good to go.

Riis

So I glimpsed through the documents RustyAxe gave me, and it seems what I need is a powered-mixer (as in a mixer with an amplifier), and not a plain old mixer. Am I right?

 

[modulusman]

So I glimpsed through the documents RustyAxe gave me, and it seems what I need is a powered-mixer (as in a mixer with an amplifier), and not a plain old mixer. Am I right?

Not if your speakers are powered. We really need to know the exact model of speaker you are using to give you a correct answer.

 

[vmabus]

If you are reading through this stuff with a voice in your head yelling at you "THERE'S NO WAY I CAN EVER UNDERSTAND THIS STUFF!!", then you will never understand this stuff.

Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right!

 

[ggunn]

So I glimpsed through the documents RustyAxe gave me, and it seems what I need is a powered-mixer (as in a mixer with an amplifier), and not a plain old mixer. Am I right?

What you need to do is to work up the system design before you buy anything. Either the speakers or the mixer can be powered, or neither (if you use external power amps), but not both. Step One is to decide on a budget. Step Two is to come up with a design that fits your requirements and budget. If you can't fit it under the budget, go back to Step One.

 

[RustyAxe]

So I glimpsed through the documents RustyAxe gave me, and it seems what I need is a powered-mixer (as in a mixer with an amplifier), and not a plain old mixer. Am I right?

Uh, no. If your speakers are powered (ie, active) you need a passive mixer. I think you're getting hung up on "preamp" ... that is NOT a power amp, but a simple little amp that bumps the signal up enough for the succeeding signal chain in the mixer to work with. A typical passive mixer has a preamp on each input (often labeled "trim" or "gain") and on each output (often labeled "volume" or "level")

Don't take this wrong ... but ... You will be doing yourself and your band a BIG favor if you delegate this to someone else. You've already thown up your hands and said "I can't". When asked for details from people who are trying to help you you've ignored it ("I won't"). "Glimpsing through" isn't gonna cut it.

 

[kabacho]

Uh, no. If your speakers are powered (ie, active) you need a passive mixer. I think you're getting hung up on "preamp" ... that is NOT a power amp, but a simple little amp that bumps the signal up enough for the succeeding signal chain in the mixer to work with. A typical passive mixer has a preamp on each input (often labeled "trim" or "gain") and on each output (often labeled "volume" or "level")

Don't take this wrong ... but ... You will be doing yourself and your band a BIG favor if you delegate this to someone else. You've already thown up your hands and said "I can't". When asked for details from people who are trying to help you you've ignored it ("I won't"). "Glimpsing through" isn't gonna cut it.

OK. So I finally have all the info. The speaker my band uses is a Electro-Voice ZXA1-90 Powered PA.
Invalid Link Removed

So the question is once more: Would adding a mixer to this device add overall volume?
Thank you.

 

[Zooberwerx]

OK. So I finally have all the info. The speaker my band uses is a Electro-Voice ZXA1-90 Powered PA.
Invalid Link Removed

So the question is once more: Would adding a mixer to this device add overall volume?
Thank you.

Let's put it like this: you have a better chance of reaching the powered speaker's full potential by adding a quality passive mixer...provided you understand how a mixer works and interacts with the speakers mentioned. Can I guarantee an increase in overall volume? No. I can pretty much guarantee an improvement in overall sound quality and performance once you get a handle on establishing gain structure throughout the signal chain. Any on-board EQ will provide addt'l tone-shaping capabilities. The good news is that used analog mixers are very reasonable on the secondhand market thanks to the advent of newer digital technology.

Riis

 

[stefaniw80401]

The first thing you have to conquer is your attitude. ...

+1 what gunn sed. It's tough to learn it on the fly on gigs. You must woodshed your PA gear just like any other instrument.

I spent serious time with my PA gear all strung out in the living room and practicing setting up gain structures, EQ on my bass pickup and mic, getting to know vocal mics, compression and effects, monitors/IEM's, main EQ's -- as much as possible. Sometimes my band (bluegrass trio) has "tech rehearsals" where we setup and plugin our sh*t so we know *** we're doing when we go out on gigs.

You've got to buck-up man and put in the time.

 

[BJMtz]

Sure...but feeding them a signal from what? Keep in mind that what you're linking / chaining together are actually onboard power amps. Not to be confused with "daisy chaining" which more commonly refers to two passive speaker components tied to a single power amp by means of of a pass-thru speaker cable.

Riis

I was about to start a thread asking this but my question related to this. I currently purchased a used PA system composed of a power amp, mixer, reverb unit, graphic eq, and 2 12" monitors. It's all older stuff and I am at work now so can't post exact model information. Anyway, after using it for the first time this weekend for practice for vox only, they were hard to hear. I had to turn it up pretty loud, still had some headroom but feedback then became an issue. I tried to eq it out with my limited knowledge and it worked a little but still volume was lacking.

The singer has a powered speaker that I want to add next time. How should I go about doing this? Right now each speaker is plugged into a different channel on the amp. It's a 2 channel.

My speakers have 2 inputs on the back. On one could I have one cable from the power amp plugged into it then run a cable from it's second input/output to the other passive speaker? Then use the other channel for a different speaker, be it the powered one or another set of passive monitors?

I guess my question is how do I add in more speakers than just the 2 I have now.

 

[stefaniw80401]

Ahh ... ye olde conundrum -- passive or active speakers. The two concepts do not play together all that well. I'm assuming you're sending your L/R main outs (XLR) from your board to your amp.

Option #1: Does your board have a 1/4-inch "main mono output" (my soundcraft EFX8 does)? You could send that to your one active speaker.

Option #2:

• Pan every channel up the middle, then:
• main out right -> amp right -> passive speaker right.
• main out left -> active speaker -- (thru daisy chain) --> amp left --> passive speaker left.

Option #3: Does your singer want to use her speaker as a monitor? If so, send her your "monitor send" or "aux1 send" from the board.

 

[modulusman]

I was about to start a thread asking this but my question related to this. I currently purchased a used PA system composed of a power amp, mixer, reverb unit, graphic eq, and 2 12" monitors. It's all older stuff and I am at work now so can't post exact model information. Anyway, after using it for the first time this weekend for practice for vox only, they were hard to hear. I had to turn it up pretty loud, still had some headroom but feedback then became an issue. I tried to eq it out with my limited knowledge and it worked a little but still volume was lacking.

The singer has a powered speaker that I want to add next time. How should I go about doing this? Right now each speaker is plugged into a different channel on the amp. It's a 2 channel.

My speakers have 2 inputs on the back. On one could I have one cable from the power amp plugged into it then run a cable from it's second input/output to the other passive speaker? Then use the other channel for a different speaker, be it the powered one or another set of passive monitors?

I guess my question is how do I add in more speakers than just the 2 I have now.

You will not get a real answer until we know what gear you have.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I was about to start a thread asking this but my question related to this. I currently purchased a used PA system composed of a power amp, mixer, reverb unit, graphic eq, and 2 12" monitors. It's all older stuff and I am at work now so can't post exact model information. Anyway, after using it for the first time this weekend for practice for vox only, they were hard to hear. I had to turn it up pretty loud, still had some headroom but feedback then became an issue. I tried to eq it out with my limited knowledge and it worked a little but still volume was lacking.

The singer has a powered speaker that I want to add next time. How should I go about doing this? Right now each speaker is plugged into a different channel on the amp. It's a 2 channel.

My speakers have 2 inputs on the back. On one could I have one cable from the power amp plugged into it then run a cable from it's second input/output to the other passive speaker? Then use the other channel for a different speaker, be it the powered one or another set of passive monitors?

I guess my question is how do I add in more speakers than just the 2 I have now.

Stefan and Modulusman are both on target. I'll go one step further: Given your self-confessed "limited knowledge", I would focus on getting the most from what you already have on hand...skip the powered speaker for the moment. We definitely need more details on the gear. Could be a pile of junk or a seriously mal-adjusted gold mine and that we can fix.

I'll assume you're using the monitors as monitors and not FOH mains? The feedback issue leads me to believe so.

Riis

 

[BJMtz]

Gear is:

Peavey CS 800s power amp
dbx 215 EQ
DOD 1220 XL mixer
Peavey 112 TLS speakers

The left and right outs of the mixer go into each channel of the EQ (1 each), then from the EQ it's XLR cables into each channel of the power amp. The speakers are plugged into the parallel speaker jacks on the power amp, 1 per channel.

On that last picture, could I go from that open connection with a cable into the other speaker, freeing up 1 channel on the power amp for more speakers?

Side note: I bought this entire setup for $600, including speaker stands, and some extras like a crap mic and mic stand. Does that seems like a good deal? A little after the fact but not hoping I got ripped off buying my first PA setup.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Gear is:

Peavey CS 800s power amp
dbx 215 EQ
DOD 1220 XL mixer
Peavey 112 TLS speakers

The left and right outs of the mixer go into each channel of the EQ (1 each), then from the EQ it's XLR cables into each channel of the power amp. The speakers are plugged into the parallel speaker jacks on the power amp, 1 per channel.

On that last picture, could I go from that open connection with a cable into the other speaker, freeing up 1 channel on the power amp for more speakers?

Side note: I bought this entire setup for $600, including speaker stands, and some extras like a crap mic and mic stand. Does that seems like a good deal? A little after the fact but not hoping I got ripped off buying my first PA setup.

I think you did okay provided everything works. I need to know a little more about the mixer, though. Do you have a manual or can you provide a link. I'm most interested in knowing how many aux channels you have available (for either FX or the addition of monitors and whether you have any mains inserts for adding the EQ. I'll try enlarging the pics above.

Edit: I do see what appears to be trim, 2 bands of EQ, effects (prolly an aux send & return), and pan. What else am I missing on the mic channel strip? The inserts I mentioned are not mission critical so don't sweat it. You've also got 90% of your EQ bands severely attenuated...sum ting wong.

Edit-Edit: if you can't find the manual, some higher def pics of the topside and rear panel would help immensely. We can sort things out if we're able to discern the finer detail. Not a lot of bells & whistles...we may be goin' caveman here.

Riis

 

[BJMtz]

I think you did okay provided everything works. I need to know a little more about the mixer, though. Do you have a manual or can you provide a link. I'm most interested in knowing how many aux channels you have available (for either FX or the addition of monitors and whether you have any mains inserts for adding the EQ. I'll try enlarging the pics above.

Edit: I do see what appears to be trim, 2 bands of EQ, effects (prolly an aux send & return), and pan. What else am I missing on the mic channel strip? The inserts I mentioned are not mission critical so don't sweat it. You've also got 90% of your EQ bands severely attenuated...sum ting wong.

Edit-Edit: if you can't find the manual, some higher def pics of the topside and rear panel would help immensely. We can sort things out if we're able to discern the finer detail. Not a lot of bells & whistles...we may be goin' caveman here.

Riis

Aside from the power jack I don't think there is anything else on the back panel. I snapped this as I was heading out to work. I see now that you were interested in the mic channels, I didn't get the whole thing, you can barely see the pan knob but that is the last knob other than the slider.

Everything seems to work good however there is one issue I noticed. When I turned that Aux Level knob I got some scratching and a slight pop in the speakers and one of them is not as loud as the other. I know it's not a speaker issue because I tried both of them on the cable that I was getting the louder signal from and there they both had the same volume and quality. I still get some scratching off that Aux Level knob but not as much as when I first touched it. Nothing is plugged into the L or R AUX inputs so why would I get scratching when turning the AUX Level knob?

 

[BJMtz]

In regards to the EQ attenuation, in the haste of practice and trying to cut the feedback as I turned up the volume I cut back on some of the bands that I identified during setup of being prone to feedback. I just cut those ones even more to help stop the feedback as a quick remedy while playing a song.

 

[stefaniw80401]

In regards to the EQ attenuation [...] I just cut those ones even more to help stop the feedback as a quick remedy while playing a song.

Yes .... but look at the sliders on your EQ -- resembles a broad smiley face. That's exactly how not to use your EQ to ring out feedback.

I've looked closely at your board. Here are my recs:

1. Run your PA mono (not stereo). Then you can use your DBX EQ (and your amp) for both mains and monitors, which is traditionally how a 2-channel passive system like yours is setup.
   
2. Main out left(mono) -> dbx/EQ left -> peavey amp left -> passive speaker1 then daisy chained to passive speaker2. These are your "house mains" and should point out and away from the stage.
   
3. Monitor out -> dbx/EQ right -> peavey amp right -> passive monitor1 then daisy chained to passive monitor2. These are your monitor speakers and should point 180 degrees inward towards the stage AND point as much up at your ears as possible (not across your ankles).

Set all of your dbx/EQ sliders flat.
Set all of the knobs on your board's channel strips up the middle, except for the trim knobs - set those to zero (full left).
Set your channel faders and main faders to that mid point, or zero line on your board.
Set your Peavey power amp channel volumes to zero.

Power up sequence (your Furman is not a power sequencer):

1. mixer
2. dbx/EQ
3. Peavey power amp (leave volumes full down)

Power down sequence is the reverse.

Now plug in your mics, [edit] and guitars, and sing/play into them whilst raising the trim knobs until the overload LED's just flicker, then back off a tad. [edit] This will be a "silent" setup. You will not hear any sound from your speakers because your amp volumes are full down. This is how I like to do the initial gain settings for my band at gigs. It is unprofessional to (IMO) to do your early gain staging through your speakers. If you have head phones, use those in your board's headphone jack now. I use my earbuds for gain settings, as well as channel EQ's at this point.

Now, with the channel faders and main faders still set at "zero" line (from my earlier instruction), slowly raise the right channel volume on your Peavey amp (your stage monitors), till just about feedback point, then back off a tad. This is your initial "working" highest gain-before-feedback point for your monitors. Hopefully you'll have enough volume now for your band practice.

Adjust channel vocal/instrument balance using the individual [edit] mon knobs. Your channel faders are for your main out balance.

Leave the Peavey left channel (house mains) fully down for now until you're ready for your audience to hear you.

We'll cover using your dbx/EQ later to ring out monitors and mains feedback. This process will give you a little more gain before feedback, but don't expect a huge amount of improvement. The biggest improvement is proper placement of mics and speakers.

Print this message out and follow it along when you're setting up.

Good luck!!

 

[BJMtz]

Yes .... but look at the sliders on your EQ -- resembles a broad smiley face. That's exactly how not to use your EQ to ring out feedback.

I've looked closely at your board. Here are my recs:

1. Run your PA mono (not stereo). Then you can use your DBX EQ (and your amp) for both mains and monitors, which is traditionally how a 2-channel passive system like yours is setup.
   
2. Main out left(mono) -> dbx/EQ left -> peavey amp left -> passive speaker1 then daisy chained to passive speaker2. These are your "house mains" and should point out and away from the stage.
   
3. Monitor out -> dbx/EQ right -> peavey amp right -> passive monitor1 then daisy chained to passive monitor2. These are your monitor speakers and should point 180 degrees inward towards the stage AND point as much up at your ears as possible (not across your ankles).

Set all of your dbx/EQ sliders flat.
Set all of the knobs on your board's channel strips up the middle, except for the trim knobs - set those to zero (full left).
Set your channel faders and main faders to that mid point, or zero line on your board.
Set your Peavey power amp channel volumes to zero.

Power up sequence (your Furman is not a power sequencer):

1. mixer
2. dbx/EQ
3. Peavey power amp (leave volumes full down)

Power down sequence is the reverse.

Now plug in your mics, and sing into them whilst raising the trim knobs until the overload LED's just flicker, then back off a tad.

Now, with the channel faders and main faders still set at "zero" line (from my earlier instruction), slowly raise the right channel volume on your Peavey amp (your stage monitors), till just about feedback point, then back off a tad. This is your initial "working" highest gain-before-feedback point for your monitor. Hopefully you'll have enough volume now for your band practice.

Adjust channel volume balance using the individual channel faders.

Leave the Peavey left channel (house mains) fully down for now until you're ready for your audience to hear you.

We'll cover using your dbx/EQ later to ring out monitors and mains feedback. This process will give you a little more gain before feedback, but don't expect a huge amount of improvement. The biggest improvement is proper placement of mics and speakers.

Print this message out and follow it along when you're setting up.

Good luck!!

Thanks a lot! This definitely helps and makes sense to me. It didn't seem very efficient running each speaker into it's own channel but that's how it was set up when I bought it.

Now my whole conundrum with this was not enough volume during practice. This process as you said may give me a little more gain before feedback which may be all we need, I'm not sure yet but currently only having those 2 passive speakers I could go out and get 2 monitors (which I may and could do if necessary), or as mentioned earlier try to use my singer's powered wedge as a monitor. Stef, I know you said the two don't play together well so should I just forget that idea or is there a way to make it work?