Logic check for a "live sound" rig for a small gigging situation.

[Big Hoss]

I am sure I am not the only one wondering about this... So I am going to throw it out there...

Scenario. You are a bass player, that has hooked up with a friend that is a drummer, and a singer / guitar player, and you want to start gigging small venues like Coffee Shops, barbecue joints and such. We aren't talking stadiums here, and we aren't talking dance club volumes, we are talking dinner and coffee music type volumes (people can talk to each other without shouting).

What I typically see working bands doing / what is visible to me in this situation is..
#1. 2 PA speakers. Powered or passive is unknown. Let's assume powered for simplicity sake. Plus the associated cables to connect back to the mixing desk, and stands to get them up off the floor. Typically speaker height is at about 6' off the floor.
#2. Typically 2 monitors for vocals. One in front of where the singer / guitarist is, another in front and kind of in between bass and drummer
#3. Mics, mic stands, and XLR cables for vocals for bass, drum, guitar.
#4. Bass Amp. I see typically combos, but a few local guys do stacks.
#5. Guitar Amp. Same situation as bass amp.
#5. Drums typically do not appear to be mic

I have to assume in the background between the mics, and the mains are...
#1. A mixer, typically a small desktop model, less than 24 inputs.
#2. A laptop with output / connectivity to add in additional loops to the mix where needed, this isn't super common, but I have heard of it...).
#3. IF speakers are passives, there would have to be an amp of some sort here, either powered mixer or stand alone amp...
#4. Cable snake getting the XLRs from the mics to the mixer. Depending on the band, sometimes the out from the bass / guitar amps are run through the mixer, sometimes not.

Am I missing anything?

I have seen several acts, including a live performance by Dixie Chicks songwriter Susan Gibson using far less.

Her gig gear when I saw her play last year at T-Bone Toms in Kemah Texas was...

#1. SMALL Accoustic Guitar Amp. (No bass player, booo!)
#2. Drummer / live kit. (Drummer understood volume control).
#3. Small portable PA rig, looked like one of those portable jobs like a Peavey Messenger, the P.A. system was exclusively used for vocals. She added a couple of

She used this rig and filled an open air venue of about I am guessing 40' x 100' with wonderful music that the entire audience enjoyed.

There is a trio I find around here that plays through a similar rig, but also has a bass player.

So the big question is going to be, for the small venue / lower volume bands, what is a system that will work well for their music, and their audience? Susan's rig was very small / low budget, but it certainly didn't leave us wanting for her style of music, but I can't imagine this would work well for any sort of rock band...

 

[dlb1001]

Yes, this setup is typical for smaller venues. In a former band that I was in, the PA was a Bose L1 tower, with 4 mics and a small 4 ch mixer. We had to be careful with volume since it was easy to drown the vocals. The present band that I'm in uses a small Kustom PA that bought used. Works for the small bar that we have been playing in but we need to get a bigger system, with monitors, since the drummer always complains that he can't hear anyone (might help if he didn't pound the drums so hard, too!!).

 

[Big Hoss]

Yeah, drummers tend to be a bit, well... lacking in volume control. I'd imagine it takes a learned touch that most just don't ever develop...

 

[Winfred]

Yep, that's an accurate list. Add duct tape, lots of spare cables and cords, and you're good.

Your guitarist wouldn't need much of an amp, so no stacks. A small, 10-20 watt amp will easily get the job done in places like you're describing. A very small combo is all they need.

The drummer will definitely need to understand dynamics and volume control.

If everyone is on the same page in regards to volume, you'll be great.

 

[Big Hoss]

Mind you, I've seen no shortage of duos, a guitar, a bass, and no drums. Just a drum synth, playing live venues. Those are MUCH easier to deal with volume wise I bet...

 

[nutdog]

For a small room and/or low volume make it easy on yourself and use one main. Today's powered speakers (QSC, Yamaha, JBL, Yorkville...) will easily handle a low volume gig with one. Unless you run stereo there's really no reason for two.

 

[nutdog]

Here's my mini PA rig for small room/low volume. Actually it will get pretty loud.

EG, keys, vdrums, bass, mic's sax and 3 vocals all run through one qsc k10 and EV zxa1sub. Two monitors (k10, k12). Any mixer with enough inputs would do. We use a dl1608. No guitar or bass amps. Just pedal DI's. The keys has a roland cube up high for personal monitoring.

At a larger venue, sans keys. This was a big room but they wanted dinner background music and it had volume to spare.

 

[modulusman]

One of the bands I play with the BL has 2 Yamaha stagepas 500 systems. This is a classic rock band that doesn't play super loud. He will use one system for the mains and the other for monitors. On some low volume gigs or where space is tight he will just use one system and try and put the speakers back far enough so they work as monitors also. Not Ideal but it can work if you are careful about your volume. From what you are describing the newer Yamaha stagepas 600 might be the ticket. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-stagepas-600i-680w-portable-pa-system#productDetail This has better EQ, more power, and better speakers than the 500 system we use. My smallest PA that I own consists of 2 Yamaha DXR10s [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] an Allen and Heath 12fx http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/allen-heath-zed-12fx-usb-mixer-with-effects This system is twice the price of the stagepas. I also have a DXS12 sub to use with it when needed. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-dxs12-12-active-subwoofer this adds another $700.00 to the price.

 

[jimfist]

On some low volume gigs or where space is tight he will just use one system and try and put the speakers back far enough so they work as monitors also. Not Ideal but it can work if you are careful about your volume

Ditto here. I do some very small pub/restaurant bars with acoustic gtr, small kit and bass, and this is what we do with our PA-on-stick setup. Sometimes adding wedges is more of a pain in the ass than it is worth, and eats up too much space. I see this method used at these venues more than not.

 

[Big Hoss]

Good info. Thanks!

Just FWIW, I am digging for knowledge right now, I am WAY too newbie to even be considering adding a PA to the mix as I am just jamming with friends and doing some really bad recordings now. (Not the recordings being bad, my playing is what is bad...).

Oddly enough, there is a possibility of, in the future doing some "family event" type gigs. My in laws are a large family that tends toward musical inclinations including a sister in law that has been on at least one international talent show and does vocals at a local Jazz Cafe, a Niece that sings in a female vocal group, a brother in law that is learning flamenco guitar and a nephew that is making his parents regret buying him that 100w 2x12 guitar amp for Christmas... (Think Cheech and Chong type shredding and volume...)

My jam colleagues and I are knocking the idea around of a blues / rock type thing with some serious ZZ Top overtones.

And with the exception of one of my jam friends who is rarely available and likely to not move ahead, nobody has a PA rig... So I figure one of us has to learn about it and figure out what will work for our needs down the road... We just aren't there yet...

 

[nutdog]

Powered mixer and a couple of speakers will go a long way for small projects. Usually pretty cheap on craigslist and simple to set up.

This gig we just didn't use the stands. Just put one on the floor pointed one way and one pointed back toward us. There were people outside behind us so it worked out well. Keys, vocals and sax in the PA.

 

[Scott Waldy]

Just like Nutdog's post, I'd look towards powered speakers and take a serious look at the Mackie DL1608. I'm ditching all of my passive speakers, amps eqs, 16 channel mixing board and LARGE case etc..., etc..., etc... for the smaller self contained stuff. It's fully scale-able from coffee shop to full on show, just add more speakers. You don't have to worry about processing, needing more amp channels etc. Just MHO.

 

[Downunderwonder]

At the scale you're talking about you won't want monitors, you want the drummer to struggle to hear so he shushes the hell up.

A 212 100w guitar on 11 doesn't belong indoors ime.

 

[Big Hoss]

Okay take Nutdog's photo as an example... Looks like his band is doing sort of the same size and most likely volumes I have in mind... So lets make an assumption, and yes I am going to put my own stuff in place here because, well I am asking the questions...


But humor me for a sec. The end result will likely be different, but let's assume a band coalesces from my most frequent jam friends, in that case we would have available to use the following that I am aware of...

#1. Instruments and amplification including.
-- My Basses, and Fender Rumble V3 500 combo. Most likely huge overkill in this setup, but I know how to turn down, so no biggie...
-- Guitar players accoustic / electric guitar, and Stratocasters, and I believe it is a 1x12 Fender combo amp, I think around 100watts, he knows how to turn down too...
-- Drum kit, VERY similar setup to what is pictured.
-- No keys, but lots of synth software and loops in a laptop with a USB audio interface.
-- 2 12 input mixers, 1 5 input mixer. All analog passive not powered.
-- Bags of dyanmic mics with windscreens, boom stands, and XLR cables.
-- Plenty of instrument cables and spares.

I would assume that what we lack to get "live sound" for the types of venues is at a minimum...

Option #1. Go on the used market for a small / mid size power amp, 500 ish watts? and a pair of good quality speakers and all associated cabling. These actually come up more often than Squier basses on my local Craigslist...

Option #2. Go new for a pair of small to mid size ish powered speakers and the associated cabling for them.

For each option, how would the connections be made? I assume that the fader on the mixer main would control volume.

I am just browsing musiciansfriend.com now and taking a look at a reasonably affordable-ish powered speaker, the Mackie Thump TH-15A, and I am curious how this would connect to the mixer, it appears to have XLR in and out. Being unfamiliar with this, but familiar with a mixer I have to stab at guessing...

I would think we would use a 1/4" to XLR cable to connect from the main out on the mixer, to the in on each speaker, so there would be 2, one for left 1 for right.

I also see that not all powered loudspeakers connect this way... I am looking now at Harbinger V2112s and they seem to use a 1/4" cable (would instrument cable work here or do I need some kind of special "speaker cable" to connect from mixer to powered speakers?

I am utterly clueless as to whether or not either of these are any good, just see that the specs meet what I think to be the requirement, and they won't cause bickering over money too much...

 

[Big Hoss]

At the scale you're talking about you won't want monitors, you want the drummer to struggle to hear so he shushes the hell up.

A 212 100w guitar on 11 doesn't belong indoors ime.

In small spaces, a 210 500w bass amp turned all the way up doesn't either... I got stupid and found out why...

 

[Dogbertday]

Skipped most of the thread, but in a one vocal, kinda loud but not crazy blues trio I used to bring my powered mixer, two PA tops on stands, a Mic on a stand, and we just set up the PA behind us. Didn't have feedback issues and we could hear everything.

 

[Scott Waldy]

All of the powered speakers will take either a microphone cable or a 1/4" Balanced cable. It looks like a 1/4" headphone plug with 2 lines. It's called a Tip, Ring, Sleeve or TRS for short.

Or... you could go with a Powered Mixer and Passive (non powered) Speakers.

 

[Big Hoss]

Just FWIW, the Mackie powered speakers I was looking at had no 1/4 jacks, only XLR male and female... Behringers that way too.

 

[modulusman]

Both the thump and the harbingers suck. They will not get very loud at all. If you are looking for something cheap look at the new Yamaha DBR series. Good reviews from what I have seen on the internet plus a 7 year warranty. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-dbr10-powered-speaker One of these is will get twice as loud as either the thump or the harbinger. They only weigh 23 pounds also. Most powered speakers will have XLR inputs, some will have 1/4 inch also. If your mixer doesn't have xlr outputs then you need cables like thishttp://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/live-wire-trs--xlrm-patch-cable make sure it is a TRS and not TS 1/4 end.

 

[nutdog]

23lbs is stupid light for a 10 inch powered speaker. $399 with free stand. Could probably talk MF into another 10-20% off. Pretty sweet. If those had been out when I got the k10's...