Logic check for a "live sound" rig for a small gigging situation.

[strictlybass_ic]

I'm currently in a duo (guitar & bass) and we do some of the small venue, low volume gigs like you described. If we're lucky there is a house PA and we just both run into that. It's simple and easy, but a lot of the smaller setups can't take much bass without negative consequences. It's a crap shoot. As for settings where we provide the sound i run through a 210 or 112 cab at very low volume and guitarist runs through a PA head and just uses monitors. It's probably not the best setup, but it gets the job done just fine.

It is hard to do these type of shows with a "rock band" because (as others have already mentioned) drums are just loud. I've played with drummers who can pull it off, but they didn't like it. It takes a lot of restraint on their part.

 

[Big Hoss]

Unless you have the mixer out front and someone running sound you don't need a snake. The mixer will be onstage. If you do need a snake seismic audio has best prices. I've had one of their 12 channel double fans for several years and it's work well.

The connectors on the yamahas are xlr/1/4 combo. They will take either. The main outs on the 1202 are unbalanced, meaning you can probably use a trs but only need ts. You could probably get by with instrument cables...I think...but typically a mixer will have balanced outs and you would need a cable like this Invalid Link Removed (short but you can connect it to any mic cable to lengthen) or this http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/live-wire-trs--trs-balanced-patch-cable

Balanced vs unblanced (my meager understanding, I'm electrically challenged)--the third wire is a leg with the same signal but any noise picked up will be out of phase and canceled. This allows longer cables without picking up noise. Using an instrument cable will probably be fine for short runs but it acts like an antenna and will pick up stuff. The longer the cable, the bigger the antenna. I have used regular ts speaker cables to connect mixer to powered speaker in a pinch.

Never use an instrument cable to connect an amp to a speaker. Instrument cables have shielding (a layer of metal around the two wires) to help with the antenna properties. Instrument and mixer signals are low power. Amp signals are not. The shielding is bad juju for the high power signal. Speaker cables do not have shielding because of this but it does mean they are more likely to pick up noise. Amp to speaker cables should be as short as possible. Another advantage of powered speakers is the amp is always connected to the speaker and you don't have to worry about that.

Yeah, I wasn't entirely certain about the TS vs TRS thing. I use XLR to TS cables to connect my amp to the mixer because that is what Behringer recommended in the owners manual. It worked fine connecting my Crate to the mixer, haven't tried it with the Rumble yet... XLR to TRS cables aren't really any more expensive than XLR to TS, maybe a couple of bucks... Less than a Megabucks coffee...

IF I am getting what folks are saying right, we would set up the mains off to the side of us on stage, and up on stands, kind of dual purpose, for amplification to the audience and for monitoring. I got that. Then going backwards through the rig, 1/4" cable either TRS or TS to one of the Behringer XENYX 1202FX mixers. I only mention the multiple mixers because we have them, so in the case of a failure we have a spare on hand... Those would be connected on cable per speaker, a left and a right. The mixer would be on a desk, a box, a card table or whatnot off to the side or onstage perhaps behind? If we are going no drummer, but synth percussion then that mixing desk would also be the desk the laptop would be set up on. The XLR inputs (3 of them anyway) would be connected via XLR cables to the dynamic mics. The 1/4" channel inputs would be connected via XLR to TS or TRS cables (We have TS now) to the bass and guitar amps. The tape in / out connected via a USB interface to the laptop, and a 1/4" TRS to 3.5mm TRS cable connects a stereo 1/4 input on the mixer to the headphone jack on the laptop (The laptop can provide multiple input streams at once via multiple audio devices...)

I don't mind spending a few bucks in the budget for this to get the right cables though, so...

Would I be better off getting a fist full of XLR to TRS cables in XLR M and XLR F? Would that be a problem for my mixer?

 

[Big Hoss]

Well, either, that's a typing mistake and i meant cajón or i meant the cajun rocket, obviously.

Sorry, I've lived in Texas a looong time now... We get a lot of Cajuns around here! Just thinking about it makes me want some hot Gumbo for lunch...

 

[Big Hoss]

Don't forget something to put it all in! Duffels or tupperwares for stands and cables, case/cover for speakers and mixers, and the almighty Velcro wrap for taking cables! Organization makes everyone's life easier with small PA's.

You make a great point, and something I didn't mention that I should have...

-- My instruments and accessories including...
|-- Ibanez Soundgear PJ Basses SR480 and SR500. I transport them in Gator GL-Bass cases, and the cables, tuners, pedals etc... all have plenty of room in those.
|-- Fender Rumble V3 500 combo. Have never needed to use a cover, but I could sure see how that could prevent damage. Going to have to look into getting one.

-- 2 12 input mixers, Both Behringer XENYX 1202FX mixers. My mixer, extension cords, USB interface etc... all fit in and are easily brought to location in my laptop backpack.
-- 6 Nady SP-5 dynamic mics with windscreens and bag. I have the Nady 6 mic bag and all the XLR, XLR to TS, and a few extra instrument cables live there.
-- 3 Samson microphone boom stands. These things are small when packed up. I need to get a duffel bag for them
-- Fog machine and "rotating light effects" machines (Halloween gear). I know, it's extra, but I have it, why not use it? IF I were to bother to bring this, chances are it would be in an old gym bag. I have it, I don't use it, it's black so it sort of looks like it was intended to be a music gear bag... Come to think of it, it is possible the mic stands might fit this old bag...

-- Powered speakers. You have me back to thinking these would need covers to protect them in transit.
-- Speaker stands of some variety to get them up off the floor. Duffel bag again. If these combined with the mic stands don't weigh too much the bag could probably be one and the same.

And something I just remembered that I haven't mentioned yet.

-- Hercules triple stand for my basses. This is going to need to go in a duffel of some sort too!

And oh yeah, I already have plenty of Velcro, Duct Tape, and surge supressor / outlet strips.

 

[nutdog]

Yeah, I wasn't entirely certain about the TS vs TRS thing. I use XLR to TS cables to connect my amp to the mixer because that is what Behringer recommended in the owners manual. It worked fine connecting my Crate to the mixer, haven't tried it with the Rumble yet... XLR to TRS cables aren't really any more expensive than XLR to TS, maybe a couple of bucks... Less than a Megabucks coffee...

IF I am getting what folks are saying right, we would set up the mains off to the side of us on stage, and up on stands, kind of dual purpose, for amplification to the audience and for monitoring. I got that. Then going backwards through the rig, 1/4" cable either TRS or TS to one of the Behringer XENYX 1202FX mixers. I only mention the multiple mixers because we have them, so in the case of a failure we have a spare on hand... Those would be connected on cable per speaker, a left and a right. The mixer would be on a desk, a box, a card table or whatnot off to the side or onstage perhaps behind? If we are going no drummer, but synth percussion then that mixing desk would also be the desk the laptop would be set up on. The XLR inputs (3 of them anyway) would be connected via XLR cables to the dynamic mics. The 1/4" channel inputs would be connected via XLR to TS or TRS cables (We have TS now) to the bass and guitar amps. The tape in / out connected via a USB interface to the laptop, and a 1/4" TRS to 3.5mm TRS cable connects a stereo 1/4 input on the mixer to the headphone jack on the laptop (The laptop can provide multiple input streams at once via multiple audio devices...)

I don't mind spending a few bucks in the budget for this to get the right cables though, so...

Would I be better off getting a fist full of XLR to TRS cables in XLR M and XLR F? Would that be a problem for my mixer?

I think all that would work. I wouldn't put the bass and guitar amps into the mixer. Your rumble 210 and just about any guitar amp should carry the room and ease the load on the mains.

The main reason I run everything into the PA: I went through several very nice bass rigs. We also liked to mic the kick (now we're almost always using vdrums, which some people hate but I love). So we started bring a powered sub. It was big and heavy. In order to carry the room with tasteful rock volume I was turning the bass amp up. I love that but it made the singers want their monitors louder. Then the guitar wanted louder. So then the singers wanted louder. Then I wanted louder. Then...

So I started putting the bass into the PA and turning my rig down. It became a glorified personal monitor. So if I'm carrying a big heavy sub why also bring a big heavy bass rig? No real need for a fancy/schmancy bass rig for the lower volume. I sold the expensive bass stuff and bought nice, lightweight mains, subs and digital mixer. I still use a rumble 12 as a monitor sometimes but I can get by without it.

TLDR: I'm lazy. I have to carry PA so why carry a bass rig, too?

 

[modulusman]

I think all that would work. I wouldn't put the bass and guitar amps into the mixer. Your rumble 210 and just about any guitar amp should carry the room and ease the load on the mains.

The main reason I run everything into the PA: I went through several very nice bass rigs. We also liked to mic the kick (now we're almost always using vdrums, which some people hate but I love). So we started bring a powered sub. It was big and heavy. In order to carry the room with tasteful rock volume I was turning the bass amp up. I love that but it made the singers want their monitors louder. Then the guitar wanted louder. So then the singers wanted louder. Then I wanted louder. Then...

So I started putting the bass into the PA and turning my rig down. It became a glorified personal monitor. So if I'm carrying a big heavy sub why also bring a big heavy bass rig? No real need for a fancy/schmancy bass rig for the lower volume. I sold the expensive bass stuff and bought nice, lightweight mains, subs and digital mixer. I still use a rumble 12 as a monitor sometimes but I can get by without it.

TLDR: I'm lazy. I have to carry PA so why carry a bass rig, too?

Nutdog is right you should just have vocals into your PA for the gigs you are describing.

 

[4Mal]

If you can, you should spend up in a few places...
First place I would go is digital board. A Mackie DL, used iPad will sound a ton better. There is no substitute for providing a quality signal to the amp. None... The Mackie flat out sounds a ton better and it has EQ's, scene Savin, decent recording, background music hardwired in (iTunes) and a really useful feature set. Used and B-Stock Mackie DL's and Presonus 16x boards are out there. For what you describe, the 806 would suffice I expect.

Nady mic's - upgrade those to at least SM-58's, preferable Audix OM 5 or 6's - same reason...

The Yamaha' s are OK. QSC's are my flavor of choice they sound good and are reliable. And yeah, get the bags. Dinged and scraped speakers don't really present the best image ... They also don't resell as well when the time comes. I would not be afraid of the used market for K series stuff. Just give it a good wring out ...

Monitors- pretty much you don't really need them or more than 1 inside. Put the speaks on poles, behind and to the side. When you get outside, you might want 2 to three. That is as much as my band ever carries and we work a ton of light volume gigs. Inside and out. Well we do carry a sub for outside but that is primarily to keep my amp reasonable on stage.

We do lounge, wine bar, wineries, dinners, weddings, bistro, resort - anywhere there are imbibing yuppies with disposable income... My band is guitar, acoustic and electric, keys, bass - all in the PA. Guitarist has a 22watt tube combo, I use a small 2x10 based rig. Acoustic drums. Outside we often have kick and drum over head mics. In that case, we forgo the electric guitar mic and he turns up a bit. We still aren't loud. 3 singers. 8 channels. I can go bigger but rarely need to, for my band anyway. The sound company thing is a whole 'nuther thang...

Our sweet spot is when we look out and see people singing along and other folks chatting. If I see that, I know we're where we need to be. ...and yeah, nobody rents a tux for Grammy night ;-)

Lighting, 99% of the time we don't use it. Lighting effects - 100% of the time we don't use them. They only look 'not contrived' when someone is dedicated to running them. Just skip it till you hit the big time... A couple of 4 bar clones from mCM Electronics at $200 a pop, pls a couple of taller stands at $50 a pop and your wash lighting rig is good to go... Oh yeah you want a couple of 50' dmx cables to link the bars off one foot switch.

I get the idea of starting off with the minimum level of investment. That is exactly what I started doing years ago. Eventually I basically scrapped it all and did it right. In the process I learned a ton but I spent a LOT more than I would have had I just bought it right to begin with... If your band isn't one that works all the time, then your system can begin to pay for itself with some sound dates/open mic's ...

 

[4Mal]

In the PA or not in the PA. You can go either way but... In the PA can providea more uniform, processed sound. You have to work at it and get the levels right but for us, it works better than vocals only. We often get the ' wow, you guys sound like the cd' comment. That is due to the way we mix more than the way we play... I mean hey, we're 4 people, each with two hands and two feet, so covering 64 tracks of the Eagles or Fleetwood Mac doesn't actually work... It most definitely does not sound like the cd... Except there is light compression, light reverb and delay, tasty EQ choices that provide that smooth polished sound across all the instruments - and that is what people respond to.

Of course, we have a drummer that has learned how the present his energy at whatever level we happen to be playing at... That there can't be overstated. He is key to making it work... Music, it' s a team sport...

We've worked at getting our thing sounding the way it does and it pays off in gigs. Same line up for 3 plus years and we still rehearse. If we were Indy Rock, Alt Country hucking originals in search of the record deal, then maybe this isn't the approach I would take. Sadly, the next tour bus I get on will probably be from the old age home down to get groceries :-O

 

[modulusman]

If you can, you should spend up in a few places...
First place I would go is digital board. A Mackie DL, used iPad will sound a ton better. There is no substitute for providing a quality signal to the amp. None... The Mackie flat out sounds a ton better and it has EQ's, scene Savin, decent recording, background music hardwired in (iTunes) and a really useful feature set. Used and B-Stock Mackie DL's and Presonus 16x boards are out there. For what you describe, the 806 would suffice I expect.

Nady mic's - upgrade those to at least SM-58's, preferable Audix OM 5 or 6's - same reason...

The Yamaha' s are OK. QSC's are my flavor of choice they sound good and are reliable. And yeah, get the bags. Dinged and scraped speakers don't really present the best image ... They also don't resell as well when the time comes. I would not be afraid of the used market for K series stuff. Just give it a good wring out ...

Monitors- pretty much you don't really need them or more than 1 inside. Put the speaks on poles, behind and to the side. When you get outside, you might want 2 to three. That is as much as my band ever carries and we work a ton of light volume gigs. Inside and out. Well we do carry a sub for outside but that is primarily to keep my amp reasonable on stage.

We do lounge, wine bar, wineries, dinners, weddings, bistro, resort - anywhere there are imbibing yuppies with disposable income... My band is guitar, acoustic and electric, keys, bass - all in the PA. Guitarist has a 22watt tube combo, I use a small 2x10 based rig. Acoustic drums. Outside we often have kick and drum over head mics. In that case, we forgo the electric guitar mic and he turns up a bit. We still aren't loud. 3 singers. 8 channels. I can go bigger but rarely need to, for my band anyway. The sound company thing is a whole 'nuther thang...

Our sweet spot is when we look out and see people singing along and other folks chatting. If I see that, I know we're where we need to be. ...and yeah, nobody rents a tux for Grammy night ;-)

Lighting, 99% of the time we don't use it. Lighting effects - 100% of the time we don't use them. They only look 'not contrived' when someone is dedicated to running them. Just skip it till you hit the big time... A couple of 4 bar clones from mCM Electronics at $200 a pop, pls a couple of taller stands at $50 a pop and your wash lighting rig is good to go... Oh yeah you want a couple of 50' dmx cables to link the bars off one foot switch.

I get the idea of starting off with the minimum level of investment. That is exactly what I started doing years ago. Eventually I basically scrapped it all and did it right. In the process I learned a ton but I spent a LOT more than I would have had I just bought it right to begin with... If your band isn't one that works all the time, then your system can begin to pay for itself with some sound dates/open mic's ...

You must have missed the post where the OP said he had maybe $1500.00 to spend. So I don't see a new mixer on the horizon. I do agree though that those Nady mics probably suck real bad since they cost $10.00 a piece. No way a mic that costs less than a mic cable is going to be any good.

 

[4Mal]

No I got that - like Colonel Kurtz.. His method is unsound. Ultimately, it is a path towards spending more not less - if he is successful at getting his band working and of course there is the rub... That Xenyx board has a half life measured in weeks under constant use. Cheap connectors and it's cheaper to replace than fix. And it really doesn't sound very good. I did an open mic with one. Brought my board the next week and it's like - whoa... What changed... Bands that sound good, tend to get work. Those that don't...

Yep... I get that there are lines to be drawn, places to start, uncertainty about the stability of new projects. I also have been down the piecing it together route personally and would not go that way again if I could possibly avoid it. If not, then I would do it all over again as I have that moth and flame thing working overtime with me and playing live.

My local CL has a set of K8's in bags for a grand. They've been on the list for a month. Maybe they'll take $900 which is more like it anyway... Was looking at eBay last night to see the depressingly fallen values of my 16.4.2 (solds anywhere from $650 to a grand). I didn't look at the DL-806 but last summer I got mine, plus a used IPad 2 at about $700... $800 in ancillary cables, cases, stands, mics, etc... And he has a system that he won't want or need to upgrade...

My .02 a and dissenting opinion, hopefully worth more.

 

[SteveHeissner]

This is an excellent post. I've wondered about this too. There are times when our band plays in small bars and the sound man with full PA is just way over kill and I really wish we could downsize. I also think musicians with self control and volume management skills are key to making this work.

 

[modulusman]

No I got that - like Colonel Kurtz.. His method is unsound. Ultimately, it is a path towards spending more not less - if he is successful at getting his band working and of course there is the rub... That Xenyx board has a half life measured in weeks under constant use. Cheap connectors and it's cheaper to replace than fix. And it really doesn't sound very good. I did an open mic with one. Brought my board the next week and it's like - whoa... What changed... Bands that sound good, tend to get work. Those that don't...

Yep... I get that there are lines to be drawn, places to start, uncertainty about the stability of new projects. I also have been down the piecing it together route personally and would not go that way again if I could possibly avoid it. If not, then I would do it all over again as I have that moth and flame thing working overtime with me and playing live.

My local CL has a set of K8's in bags for a grand. They've been on the list for a month. Maybe they'll take $900 which is more like it anyway... Was looking at eBay last night to see the depressingly fallen values of my 16.4.2 (solds anywhere from $650 to a grand). I didn't look at the DL-806 but last summer I got mine, plus a used IPad 2 at about $700... $800 in ancillary cables, cases, stands, mics, etc... And he has a system that he won't want or need to upgrade...

My .02 a and dissenting opinion, hopefully worth more.

Well the OP stated they had 2 of the mixers so at least they have a back up if it fails. IMO his priority should be best speakers he can find, then better microphones then mixer.

 

[Big Hoss]

No worries guys. And yes I totally get it that premium gear is worth the investment, if it is doable... I would figure powered speakers and proper cabling could be used no matter the mixer in there, at worst, unless I go with a powered mixer which I honestly have no interest in.

Not sure why but my brain says powered speakers would be more reliable / better sounding... I could be wrong, my brain does dumb things sometimes...

Yes, the long term goal is to replace the mixer(s) with more fitting units, although I will not agree with the assertion that the Behringer mixers are worthless. I use my 1202FX regularly for podcasting work and home recording, It has functioned every bit as well as a colleague's Yamaha mixer... It IS very basic, and I understand that, I am also keenly aware that it is prone to thermal issues...

Mics, again, they are what we have for now... Budget permitting we will upgrade those soonest after getting the speakers / stands / cables. They do serve the purpose though. And they DO sound 100X better to my ear at least, than the Behringer dynamic mics.

Well the OP stated they had 2 of the mixers so at least they have a back up if it fails. IMO his priority should be best speakers he can find, then better microphones then mixer.

That's more or less the plan... I think...

Mind you, I have no problem coughing up the $100.00 (or somewhat less) for an SM-58, but replacing all 6 mics I presently have could be costly...

I do have a couple of the Behringer C-1 Condenser mics, and I have compared these against several other mics available locally, and they do sound really good to me. I know there are better mics, but the really good ones are big bucks and I have a mortgage to pay! The idea of using a condenser mic for live performance gives me the heebie jeebies as they are so fragile.

I am certain that much of the initial investment will be all on me. My wife and I have no kids, while the other guys are both putting kids through college. And even at that, I am not independently wealthy. I have some very real financial restrictions that I have to deal with, and so getting it all set up "just so" might take some time, and I need to prioritize to the following...

#1. Hone the skills, get us to the point of playing out.
#2. Add what is needed to work with what we have to get to being able to perform a live show.
#3. Start playing out, probably start by playing parties for friends kids, and recording some demos...
#4. As it develops, we can start charging for a show, and then reinvest into more / better equipment.

 

[nutdog]

I get the "buy once, cry once" deal but sometimes it doesn't make sense to fork out a big initial capital outlay for a hobby. When I started gigging we put together a PA out of whatever we could beg, borrow or steal. Then gig money went to buying equipment.

The stuff I have now wasn't available then so I'd own a bunch of heavier, old stuff if I'd bought everything up front. Even my dl1608 (at two years old) is somewhat out of date with it's 30 pin connector and tray that will only fit an ipad2. (BTW, it quit last week. Fortunately I bought the 3 year warranty. Just shipped it back yesterday.) If I bought today I'd look hard at the QSC that doesn't need an ipad.

I'm in the chemical business. We didn't start out by initially buying everything we have now. We would have gone broke if we did.

 

[Big Hoss]

I should mention for all that it's worth. I don't do Apple products. So if a product requires an Apple device to work, it's not going into my gear bags...

 

[modulusman]

No worries guys. And yes I totally get it that premium gear is worth the investment, if it is doable... I would figure powered speakers and proper cabling could be used no matter the mixer in there, at worst, unless I go with a powered mixer which I honestly have no interest in.

Not sure why but my brain says powered speakers would be more reliable / better sounding... I could be wrong, my brain does dumb things sometimes...

Yes, the long term goal is to replace the mixer(s) with more fitting units, although I will not agree with the assertion that the Behringer mixers are worthless. I use my 1202FX regularly for podcasting work and home recording, It has functioned every bit as well as a colleague's Yamaha mixer... It IS very basic, and I understand that, I am also keenly aware that it is prone to thermal issues...

Mics, again, they are what we have for now... Budget permitting we will upgrade those soonest after getting the speakers / stands / cables. They do serve the purpose though. And they DO sound 100X better to my ear at least, than the Behringer dynamic mics.



That's more or less the plan... I think...

Mind you, I have no problem coughing up the $100.00 (or somewhat less) for an SM-58, but replacing all 6 mics I presently have could be costly...

I do have a couple of the Behringer C-1 Condenser mics, and I have compared these against several other mics available locally, and they do sound really good to me. I know there are better mics, but the really good ones are big bucks and I have a mortgage to pay! The idea of using a condenser mic for live performance gives me the heebie jeebies as they are so fragile.

I am certain that much of the initial investment will be all on me. My wife and I have no kids, while the other guys are both putting kids through college. And even at that, I am not independently wealthy. I have some very real financial restrictions that I have to deal with, and so getting it all set up "just so" might take some time, and I need to prioritize to the following...

#1. Hone the skills, get us to the point of playing out.
#2. Add what is needed to work with what we have to get to being able to perform a live show.
#3. Start playing out, probably start by playing parties for friends kids, and recording some demos...
#4. As it develops, we can start charging for a show, and then reinvest into more / better equipment.

The thing to do is buy gear that will be useful down the road. If you buy some powered speakers to use as mains then in the future you might move them to monitor duty. At that point maybe you will be in a position to start micing instruments and drums then you would need a bigger mixer. As far as mics everyone in the band that needs one should supply their own. And yes powered speakers are the way to go. They generally sound great out of the box since decent ones are bi-amped and have the processing built in.

 

[Big Hoss]

The thing to do is buy gear that will be useful down the road. If you buy some powered speakers to use as mains then in the future you might move them to monitor duty. At that point maybe you will be in a position to start micing instruments and drums then you would need a bigger mixer. As far as mics everyone in the band that needs one should supply their own. And yes powered speakers are the way to go. They generally sound great out of the box since decent ones are bi-amped and have the processing built in.

Yeah, that is along the same lines I was thinking...

And sorry about all the questions... When I played before I didn't have to think about anything other than bringing my bass, my amp, and any ancillaries like tuner, pedals etc... There was always "the sound guy" that dealt with the PA details. This new reboot as it were we are missing that sound guy, and the gear he had.

 

[nutdog]

Singers supplying their own mics...

 

[modulusman]

Singers supplying their own mics...

Well if some loser can't pony up a $100.00 for a vocal mic he wouldn't be playing in any band I'm in. Unless he was a drummer. Wouldn't want to cut into their alcohol,drugs and cigarette money.

 

[DWBass]

For small, intimate settings, I'm a huge proponent for the use of a powered mixer+2 mains+2 monitors or a small mixer and powered speakers but remember with all those powered speakers, you'll need outlets for them all. They'll be extension cords all over and it is not my first choice. Good powered speakers can also be expensive. For low volume gigs in small venues or during my annual backyard BBQ, I use my Kustom 8 ch, 2x200w powered mixer with 2 15" mains on stands and 2 10" monitors. I am searching for an affordable, small, medium powered sub to connect to the dedicated sub out on the mixer.