Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Loud and Ampeg.... not looking good
- Thread starter Jerrold Tiers
- Start date
- Status
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
I like this reply for sure. Ampegs' biggest mistake for the company was to move it's production off-shore. That move alone although I'm sure to all their accountants, on paper, was what they had to do but it was a HUGE mistake to future would be Ampeg buyers and current Ampeg customers. That move not only reduced the quality of the product but also devalued future Ampeg stuff. As many people have said on here one of the best things about that company was that it was made in the US and for the most part that meant better quality. I'm sorry but if sales weren't up enough in the months/years leading towards that decision to move, well they should have folded and called it a career rather than be cheapened by inferior electronics and manufacturing methods just so they could survive or to sell more. I know that sucks for everyone who works for the company but it should go out maintaining integrity instead of dying as mere shadow of what it once was. Secondly they haven't made the move fast enough to develop and implement more class D line-up amps and super light weight cabs, which is generally where the trend is going. They are now sort of doing it, but companies like Mesa, Markbass, Genz-Benz, Gallien Kruger, Ashdown, Eden the list goes on, have beaten them to the punch in offering more of this kind of technology. Yes Ampeg has the Porta flex series but I find it hasnt really "taken" over much. I mean straight off the bat the Ampeg stuff sounds good but it's a mute point when you practically need roadies to move it half of the time, that just turns people off right there.They should have developed super light weight heads and cabs more and dropped like half of the pro series heads and classic cabs and kept it's more core line-up that they were renowned for SVT's, 810e's and 410HLF's, maybe the 1x15 cab...you know. Keep the core stuff, offer like 3 different pro series heads, several super lightweight portable combos and then scrap the rest of the junk. I mean I hope it doesn't go under but I gotta say that move to go over seas definitely pissed a lot of people off to the point where they switched teams simply by that and now were seeing several years later after the move that it's going down hill again. Now I mean I love the Ampeg tone and I wont ever sell my USA stuff because it rocks but they seriously gotta clean up their act literally and make the move to more modern more easily movable stuff. All these problems because of the move are resulting from people not buying their amps and going elsewhere. They have over extended themselves too far. So I definitely agree with a more leaner meaner Ampeg with a lot less to chose from. Also I'm not sure if these companies, not just Ampeg but all the other amp makers and such scout sites and forums like these for any R&D proceedings but they should. Companies like Markbass, for example of course being a lot smaller of an operation, probably do and get more accurate USER feedback online. I mean We are the ones who actually use the stuff they make HELLO!...Their multi-million dollar endorsed artists all have roadies and entire stage crews to move their stuff. They shouldn't just all go by the views of everyone on their endorsee list in furthering that research and development. Just a thought..
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
You may have a sharp and brilliant mind, chock full of great insights. But the internet isn't like the written page. So please format to make your great stuff easily readable.
Well, I'm assuming it's great - I'm certainly not going to wade through that mess to find out.
If you pay attention on these boards, you'd see that this concept is changing. Lakland Skyline, Sadowsky Metro, Genz Benz Shuttle series, MarkBass. All of these are very coveted brands, yet none are made in the US.
Personally, I couldn't care less about the country of origin. American workers are just as capable of making crap as foreign workers (GM, anyone?) A well made product with good customer service will win my dollars every time.
It is sad that Ampeg is hurting in LOUD's collective hands. But, if the history of the Ampeg name is anything to go by, it won't die off.
A new approach is needed to bring it back. I see two potential paths that could be taken. 1.) bring everything back to domestic production & offer a limited, but rather costly/high-quality product line, or 2.) keep production offshore, but use better components and keep tighter control over QC issues.
Myself, I would prefer to see Option #1 with the following lineup:
-a real B15 Portaflex that sounds & lasts like the original.
-a real SVT head. Make it heavy & make it last.
-V4b reissue for bassists & guitarists. 4x12 cab for guitarists and a 2x12 cab for bassists.
-a new, lightweight Markbass-type head that can get very close to the old SVT vibe.
Sadly, I'm afraid that the market will not support this choice. We're too focused on buying the cheapest thing that can be bought this instant.
A new approach is needed to bring it back. I see two potential paths that could be taken. 1.) bring everything back to domestic production & offer a limited, but rather costly/high-quality product line, or 2.) keep production offshore, but use better components and keep tighter control over QC issues.
Myself, I would prefer to see Option #1 with the following lineup:
-a real B15 Portaflex that sounds & lasts like the original.
-a real SVT head. Make it heavy & make it last.
-V4b reissue for bassists & guitarists. 4x12 cab for guitarists and a 2x12 cab for bassists.
-a new, lightweight Markbass-type head that can get very close to the old SVT vibe.
Sadly, I'm afraid that the market will not support this choice. We're too focused on buying the cheapest thing that can be bought this instant.
The difference is that most have a good US equivalent. It is up to the consumer to choose between the US product and the overseas product.
The Sadowsky metros are handbuilt to the same standards in Japan, which is a much different country than any of the other Asian countries. MarkBass is different too... Italy is a lot different than Korea or China.
I still care deeply about the country of manufacture for music gear...
Well, almost.....
Gene Kornblum sold the ENTIRE SLM operation, Crate, Ampeg, Alvarez, Knilling, Austin and SLM Marketplace, the whole works, to Loud.
Loud has since sold off Knilling, Austin and Marketplace, to a local St Louis Company, along with rights to the SLM name, as I understand it.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Huge money? Not really, but the SLM operation was *profitable*, something Loud has not been for some time.
Can't be any worse than Loud?
Well, some companies, notably Behringer, seem to get even less "love" around here than Loud. Uli Behringer might buy Ampeg, it would boost his brands up a bit.....
Having a US equivalent is meaningless to the person buying the foreign made good. Why would a Metro owner care that Roger also makes basses in the US (at twice the price, in most cases)? The Metro owner is concerned about the quality of his product, not a product that he doesn't own.
Quality goods can be manufactured in any country, even China and Korea. I personally don't take any comfort in a specific country of origin, because I acknowledge that crap can come from any worker in any country. A number of threads on this forum, plus my own personal experience with the product, might lead one to believe that MarkBass doesn't have the best quality control, despite being manufactured by an Italian firm.
It costs a lot to put out a tube amp these days. That Portaflex was probably priced where it needs to be and to me $500 is significant money.
But it's a better deal to just buy an old Portaflex or any number of old tube amps, even if you do need to retube and recap them.
KO
It's the Harley Davidson factor. The MI business isn't that different. Partly, you're selling image. An old Telecaster will always have more cache than a new Paul Reed Smith, at least for the market that Ampeg is in. Made in America. Those three words have value for bikers and musicians.
I'm not even saying it's right. Right or wrong, it's true. I'd love to have a Triumph motorcycle. Most of my amps are Traynors (made in Canada).
KO
PS In response to guy n. cognito, Even though Honda Civics are a great car, an old Ford Mustang still gets more attention. It really is the same phenomenon.
I'm normally a pretty optimistic guy, and I'm hoping that somewhere, somehow the Ampeg name will again rise to the top.
I have to wonder - if Mr. Gore's Interweb had been around 22-23 years ago, would we not have had this same discussion? MTI had sent all Ampeg manufacturing to Japan, there were quality and availability issues, and eventually it got so bad that Mr. Briefel had to close up shop. Any similarities between then and now? The names and locations have changed, but the story seems to be the same.
Just one old guy's take on the situation.
Blooz
I have to wonder - if Mr. Gore's Interweb had been around 22-23 years ago, would we not have had this same discussion? MTI had sent all Ampeg manufacturing to Japan, there were quality and availability issues, and eventually it got so bad that Mr. Briefel had to close up shop. Any similarities between then and now? The names and locations have changed, but the story seems to be the same.
Just one old guy's take on the situation.
Blooz
Blah blah woof woof...
I managed a guitar store from 1977-1988, and we had mostly good dealings with SLM. My only problem was that the "lifetime warranty" on Crates was useless because NOTHING was ever deemed a warranty claim- including power transistors that fried because they didn't have enough heat sinks on them. But their service on Alvarez and Westone stuff was pretty good. And they were really good people with whom to do business.
When the Kornblum family sold it off, and Loud was the purchaser I was somewhat concerned. My understanding from Loud taking over Mackie/TAPCO was that they curtailed any non-warranty service. No parts available, no schematics to techs or to customers, and they didn't fix anything under warranty (replacement only). That makes the used market pretty dicey for both sellers and buyers.
But in a larger sense, Ampeg is just another name. I'm a crotchety old curmudgeon. If it says "SVT", it's GOTTA be "Super Valve Technology" so don't make a freakin' solid state amp and call it an SVT!! That's as abominable as Mercury slapping the "Cougar" name on those awful cars in the '80s- a freakin' Cougar STATION WAGON!!!!!???
But it doesn't matter. Some people buy bass amps because they look like what they think a rock 'n' roll gig should look like. Some buy an amp because Joe Bass Hero uses one (or at least says he does). Some buy them because their buddies tell them it's the only good amp to buy. Some buy them because they listened to it and it's their voice. Some buy stuff because of where it's made. Some buy stuff because of where the THINK it's made, but never dig to find out (uh, it's an Ampeg, must be 'Merican").
Whether Loud hangs on or not, the Ampeg name is a valuable commodity. Heck what'd happen if FMIC bought it? They'd have Fender, SWR, Sunn, and Ampeg bass amps. And they could be all the exact same stuff, or they could be what each of those companies originally made. Won't make much real difference however, because if Ampeg is gone, there's going to be other companies that'll do someting to fill the niche.
jte
I managed a guitar store from 1977-1988, and we had mostly good dealings with SLM. My only problem was that the "lifetime warranty" on Crates was useless because NOTHING was ever deemed a warranty claim- including power transistors that fried because they didn't have enough heat sinks on them. But their service on Alvarez and Westone stuff was pretty good. And they were really good people with whom to do business.
When the Kornblum family sold it off, and Loud was the purchaser I was somewhat concerned. My understanding from Loud taking over Mackie/TAPCO was that they curtailed any non-warranty service. No parts available, no schematics to techs or to customers, and they didn't fix anything under warranty (replacement only). That makes the used market pretty dicey for both sellers and buyers.
But in a larger sense, Ampeg is just another name. I'm a crotchety old curmudgeon. If it says "SVT", it's GOTTA be "Super Valve Technology" so don't make a freakin' solid state amp and call it an SVT!! That's as abominable as Mercury slapping the "Cougar" name on those awful cars in the '80s- a freakin' Cougar STATION WAGON!!!!!???
But it doesn't matter. Some people buy bass amps because they look like what they think a rock 'n' roll gig should look like. Some buy an amp because Joe Bass Hero uses one (or at least says he does). Some buy them because their buddies tell them it's the only good amp to buy. Some buy them because they listened to it and it's their voice. Some buy stuff because of where it's made. Some buy stuff because of where the THINK it's made, but never dig to find out (uh, it's an Ampeg, must be 'Merican").
Whether Loud hangs on or not, the Ampeg name is a valuable commodity. Heck what'd happen if FMIC bought it? They'd have Fender, SWR, Sunn, and Ampeg bass amps. And they could be all the exact same stuff, or they could be what each of those companies originally made. Won't make much real difference however, because if Ampeg is gone, there's going to be other companies that'll do someting to fill the niche.
jte
If the Ampeg brand name were ever sold the only 2 players in the running would probably be US Music or FMIC.
1: the cost of the Ampeg name would probably be too prohibitive for a small company wanting to bring Ampeg back to the glory days.
2: USM or FMIC would never let the Ampeg name get away as that would be significant competition.
Maybe GC, although don't they have quite a bit of debt (not that it matters).
1: the cost of the Ampeg name would probably be too prohibitive for a small company wanting to bring Ampeg back to the glory days.
2: USM or FMIC would never let the Ampeg name get away as that would be significant competition.
Maybe GC, although don't they have quite a bit of debt (not that it matters).
And with a significantly reduced price when compared to the US equivalent.
I said this in another thread, and I hope it's not viewed a "political" statement, because it certainly is not meant to be..... The Chinese government themselves have admitted counterfiet materials and components are a big problem... estimated to be at about 15%, and significantly higher in electronics... I've heard estimates as high as 80%.
Poor workmanship is definitely possible in any country. Material and component deficiency at those rates however, is where I have the problem.
Again, said in another thread, one of the Japanese OEM automakers refuses to use raw materials from China.
While unfortunate, I too believe country of manufacture to be of relative significance.
Ljazz
HOW DARE YOU!!!Well, some companies, notably Behringer, seem to get even less "love" around here than Loud. Uli Behringer might buy Ampeg, it would boost his brands up a bit.....
X
X Wolf
Guest
As an Ampeg user since 1970 going back to the Linden, NJ days and having followed this story for some time now, all I can say is that I hope that someone who understands its' value and history buys Ampeg and not only restores it to the best it was but takes it even further as the premier American bass amp company.
George
George
It is a huge deal when I want a US product and am willing to pay more for it, but one is not offered. That was my point, not that a certain country is better than another.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
FMIC, to buy, and FTF (for the fail...)
See:
Jackson/Charvel, Guild, SWR, etc..
It's a'comin'.
They'd be the only ones w/ the cash I'd think, if it were kept in the musical realm.
See:
Jackson/Charvel, Guild, SWR, etc..
It's a'comin'.
They'd be the only ones w/ the cash I'd think, if it were kept in the musical realm.
bongomania
Commercial User
Sad, but the Ampeg name is worth enough that someone will buy it. Hopefully they'll do right by it, too.
This sort of thing is nothing new to the music industry. Does anyone remember Fender's implosion in the early 80's, and its resurrection under new and competent management?
This sort of thing is nothing new to the music industry. Does anyone remember Fender's implosion in the early 80's, and its resurrection under new and competent management?
- Status
