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Double Bass Loud double bass

#21
bigshiny said:
I've used both. A 4x10 and currently a 2x12. Never had a huge problem with either. I must say that doubling is a pain in the ***. I have spent a lot of hours and $ to get to a spot where I can set one down and pick up another and be totally comfortable with the sound of each. Night after night.
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That's the spot in which I want to be! I'm getting worn out trying to find solutions. The hours I've spent working on different EQs is downright silly at this point. So yeah, a pain in the *** !
 
#22
PappaK said:
marvin spangles said:
So what makes you use one head over the other? Sorry for all the extra questions, but I'm definitely still intrigued by both the AI and EA heads.
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I recently off loaded some speakers and amps so I was trying to rationalise my rig. I already had the AI amp. I needed a back up that I could use BG with too. So I went for the Doubler EA 110 as a light weight combo. The amp is tiny.
The AI has built in effects and an xlr out. It is certainly sturdier in build quality. It is potentially louder than the EA. Though it's not an issue for me.
The Doubler is better for Doubling. I haven't got the EA long enough to compare.
I noted that you were playing in a quartet and were still having problems with your sound. (piano, sax, drums and db)
I would expect to be heard using just the EA doubler and 110. against that trio. In fact I would play unamped if I could get away with it. Of course in noisy venues it's not really practical. I want to avoid heavy gear where possible. When I do need volume the CXL112 is the deciding factor not the amp. It's very sensitive and can produce a lot of sound. However if pressed to make a choice over the two amps. I'd go for the AI mostly because I have it a long time and I can vouch for its reliability.
Hope the FDeck goes some way to solving your probems.
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#23
marvin spangles said:
PappaK said:
I recently off loaded some speakers and amps so I was trying to rationalise my rig. I already had the AI amp. I needed a back up that I could use BG with too. So I went for the Doubler EA 110 as a light weight combo. The amp is tiny.
The AI has built in effects and an xlr out. It is certainly sturdier in build quality. It is potentially louder than the EA. Though it's not an issue for me.
The Doubler is better for Doubling. I haven't got the EA long enough to compare.
I noted that you were playing in a quartet and were still having problems with your sound. (piano, sax, drums and db)
I would expect to be heard using just the EA doubler and 110. against that trio. In fact I would play unamped if I could get away with it. Of course in noisy venues it's not really practical. I want to avoid heavy gear where possible. When I do need volume the CXL112 is the deciding factor not the amp. It's very sensitive and can produce a lot of sound. However if pressed to make a choice over the two amps. I'd go for the AI mostly because I have it a long time and I can vouch for its reliability.
Hope the FDeck goes some way to solving your probems.
Click to expand...

*sigh* I hear ya. Totally. I see guys up on the same stages with much smaller setups getting a much more-present sound than me (off the stage - not counting the FOH mix).

I know I'm not going deaf. My hearing is excellent. And although the upright is fairly "new" to me, I've been playing and recording music for over 20 years. I know what sound I want - and I do get it... but just not at high-enough volumes.

So I'm at a crossroads... I'm obviously second-guessing my amp and am even wondering about my particular 212 cab.

Frustrating, but I'm prepared to sell/buy whatever gear I need in order to put all this behind me!

And preference, as per the trend, is towards a simpler setup that's relatively portable.
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#24
I play in a group that plays really loud and in large venues. While I use and endorse the Doubler, the only advantage as far as feedback is the variable notch filter. Which is a great feedback tool. I haven't had to use the notch for feedback. I also use the FC. Look around (they're hard to find) for a Fishman Dual Parametric direct box. I use it all the time. You really need fully parametric eq to get rid of feedback because you can use such a narrow width of cut that any adjacent frequencies aren't affected.
Another possible culprit----the fitting of the FC. If the FC is not making intimate contact all the way around your volume can be really low if you aren't in the rotational positions where the piezo elements are contacting the wood well enough., causing you to turn up too loud to get enough volume. Also, because the cross section of the bridge foot is square and a lot smaller than the FC, only a few positions of rotation yield top volume.There are 4 piezo elements in the FC and if the FC is rotated where the wood isn't contacting above the element volume drops dramatically. I came up with an idea that works great. I made two 1/4" thick discs of maple just smaller than the diameter of the FC. I drilled the !/4" hole and glued it to the top side of the bridge foot. I then glued 180 grit sandpaper to an extra adjuster I had laying around and remounted the bridge. I put some tension on the strings, made sure that the bridge was perpendicular and turned the adjuster back and forth for a while to insure that the surface mated perfectly with the adjuster. I then removed it and installed the bridge with the FC. What a difference! I can have my pickup in any rotation and the volume is completely consistent. I talked to the engineers at Fishman and they thought it was a great idea. I'll try to post some pics.
I don't think that the speakers make much of a diffence as far as feedback. When I tour I ask for a 4x10 cab du jour and while I like some more than others as far as sound, no difference as far as feedback with my CXL 12 (single 12 that goes about as loud as a 4x10). But then since I put in a dumb amount of time as far as setup feedback has never been an issue. And the band I play with has a screaming guitar and we play fusion loud volume.
 
#28
Mike Arnopol said:
I play in a group that plays really loud and in large venues. While I use and endorse the Doubler, the only advantage as far as feedback is the variable notch filter. Which is a great feedback tool. I haven't had to use the notch for feedback. I also use the FC. Look around (they're hard to find) for a Fishman Dual Parametric direct box. I use it all the time. You really need fully parametric eq to get rid of feedback because you can use such a narrow width of cut that any adjacent frequencies aren't affected.
Another possible culprit----the fitting of the FC. If the FC is not making intimate contact all the way around your volume can be really low if you aren't in the rotational positions where the piezo elements are contacting the wood well enough., causing you to turn up too loud to get enough volume. Also, because the cross section of the bridge foot is square and a lot smaller than the FC, only a few positions of rotation yield top volume.There are 4 piezo elements in the FC and if the FC is rotated where the wood isn't contacting above the element volume drops dramatically. I came up with an idea that works great. I made two 1/4" thick discs of maple just smaller than the diameter of the FC. I drilled the !/4" hole and glued it to the top side of the bridge foot. I then glued 180 grit sandpaper to an extra adjuster I had laying around and remounted the bridge. I put some tension on the strings, made sure that the bridge was perpendicular and turned the adjuster back and forth for a while to insure that the surface mated perfectly with the adjuster. I then removed it and installed the bridge with the FC. What a difference! I can have my pickup in any rotation and the volume is completely consistent. I talked to the engineers at Fishman and they thought it was a great idea. I'll try to post some pics.
I don't think that the speakers make much of a diffence as far as feedback. When I tour I ask for a 4x10 cab du jour and while I like some more than others as far as sound, no difference as far as feedback with my CXL 12 (single 12 that goes about as loud as a 4x10). But then since I put in a dumb amount of time as far as setup feedback has never been an issue. And the band I play with has a screaming guitar and we play fusion loud volume.
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I'm getting a very good signal - it's AT LEAST as hot as my P-Bass signal... so the fitting seems fine.

Funny, I wasn't experiencing this many problems when using a Markbass LM III. It sounded pretty good for the upright, but lacked a little "something" for the electric. Now, with the TC RH450 head, I'm getting phenomenal electric sound, but struggling with the upright.

Go figure.
 
#30
I play in loud situations with a rockabilly band from time to time. I've tried all sorts of tricks over the years... taping up the f-holes, stuffing it with towels etc.... and I think I have it licked. My recipe is:
*keep the gain level low and use the master volume.
*use gut strings.
*use a pickup system that doesn't rely on being squeezed or compressed tightly, eg. the realist is not good for high volumes. I use a Barbera system and it allows quite high volumes.
*I dont think the amp or speakers you use makes too much difference. Ive seen Ampeg 8x10s used.
*use the bass eq sparingly.
*I think that an in ear monitor with a feed from your amp would work well in extreme situations, in that it would allow you to get away from the cab, but still be able to hear well for intonation.
Hope this helps.
 
#31
+1 on the Barbera. I am an endorser and was using it for years. Changed to the FC due to durability issues with the Barbera. Some guys have had no problems with it---I did. It goes the loudest before feedback of any pickup I've used, but I've never had any problems with the FC either.
 
#32
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#33
Mike Arnopol said:
+1 on the Barbera. I am an endorser and was using it for years. Changed to the FC due to durability issues with the Barbera. Some guys have had no problems with it---I did. It goes the loudest before feedback of any pickup I've used, but I've never had any problems with the FC either.
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I went back to check my Full Circle manual... do you guys who play roots music have it installed with the threads down or up? Mine is installed "threads down". I also gave it a slight rotation. Before, the wire was dead center and I just turned it a little so it's about 45-degrees from where it was... and it's made a difference.

But of course, I'll need to test with a band live... and that's only going to be Thursday for me.
 
#34
I agree with in ear monitors. I have been using mine for about 3 years now. It's about the only way I can hear myself slap in loud situations. That parametric eq pedal looks nice. Where do you think they are made? And at $189.00, it's at a good price too. Especially for a 3 band.
 
#35
Marty Forrer said:
I play in loud situations with a rockabilly band from time to time. I've tried all sorts of tricks over the years... taping up the f-holes, stuffing it with towels etc.... and I think I have it licked. My recipe is:
*keep the gain level low and use the master volume.
*use gut strings.
*use a pickup system that doesn't rely on being squeezed or compressed tightly, eg. the realist is not good for high volumes. I use a Barbera system and it allows quite high volumes.
*I dont think the amp or speakers you use makes too much difference. Ive seen Ampeg 8x10s used.
*use the bass eq sparingly.
*I think that an in ear monitor with a feed from your amp would work well in extreme situations, in that it would allow you to get away from the cab, but still be able to hear well for intonation.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Thanks Marty. It all helps... and a BIG THANKS to everyone who are graciously taking the time to share their tricks. You guys are the best.

Two points stood out for me in the above post...

Keeping the Gain level low. I'll definitely try that... however, with the gain set the way it is now (the standard raised-until-it clips-then-back-off a notch), my Master volume is still quite high (2-3 o'clock)... so I really don't have much more room to higher.

Another VERY interesting point above... Gut strings. Right now I'm using Innovation Super Silvers. Can anyone else comment on the use of gut strings and the potential extra volume one can squeeze from them? I've been considering the switch to guts for some time now, so this has definitely caught my attention...
 
#36
PappaK said:
Nice setup! Holy moses! When do you take delivery? I'd love to hear your impressions.
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It gets shipped this coming tuesday or wednesday...not sure how long it'll take to get here though. Stoked to hook it all up and see how it goes.

I've heard a lot of upright players prefer 12's...not sure whey two single 12's as opposed to a 212 though...I need LOUD, so I go with big cabs always...this is the smallest rig I've played in a few years.

Top vibration is the main culprit for low end feedback, hence the towel trick...try it for sure...what kind of bass are you using? I have a signature model King Doublebass (now called Blast Cult)...it's a super dead bass, so getting it loud is not an issue.

Another factor is soundpost location/adjustment...the further behind your bridge foot, the more acoustic quality to a point, but also more vibration of the top...you could try nudging it closer the foot of the bridge...small increments go a long way so tread lightly. Lot's of rockabilly/psychobilly players install a second soundpost under the bass bar...that'll make it way deader, but now your live bass won't record for beans...I just have to have a live bass and a recording bass.

Hope that helps a little

Mark
 
#37
Oh man---you have it threads down? That's the problem. It can sound nice and woody that way, but much more susceptible to feedback. As far as too many knobs--- when you can't vary the "Q" (bandwidth) of the frequencies you're trying to deal with you will exhaust yourself because you'll finally get rid of the offending frequencies but find out that it took out too much of the adjacent frequencies. Double bass is the hardest instrument to amp[lify to a loud level. The problems are usually narrow frequency ranges. On my bass with the FC, the open "D" is a lot louder than any other note. It's really annoying. Without a parametric I can eq it out, but maybe one octave of notes will be softer. With the parametric I can go super narrow and reduce the D volume just enough to be in balance. I get a bit pissed because I see people here whining about the problems of amplifying the DB but they seem to take pride in their ignorance of understanding the problem and taking steps to alleviate it. EQ on amps is generally for tone "shaping" rather than solving specific frequency related problems. (like feedback) Electric bass is tons easier. I don't bring any additional stuff for the EB. The amps tone controls are enough. The louder you want to amplify a DB the more problems you get. I've spent years trying to deal with it as I play loud in lots of bands.
 
#39
Mike Arnopol said:
Oh man---you have it threads down? That's the problem. It can sound nice and woody that way, but much more susceptible to feedback. As far as too many knobs--- when you can't vary the "Q" (bandwidth) of the frequencies you're trying to deal with you will exhaust yourself because you'll finally get rid of the offending frequencies but find out that it took out too much of the adjacent frequencies. Double bass is the hardest instrument to amp[lify to a loud level. The problems are usually narrow frequency ranges. On my bass with the FC, the open "D" is a lot louder than any other note. It's really annoying. Without a parametric I can eq it out, but maybe one octave of notes will be softer. With the parametric I can go super narrow and reduce the D volume just enough to be in balance. I get a bit pissed because I see people here whining about the problems of amplifying the DB but they seem to take pride in their ignorance of understanding the problem and taking steps to alleviate it. EQ on amps is generally for tone "shaping" rather than solving specific frequency related problems. (like feedback) Electric bass is tons easier. I don't bring any additional stuff for the EB. The amps tone controls are enough. The louder you want to amplify a DB the more problems you get. I've spent years trying to deal with it as I play loud in lots of bands.
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I'm definitely not "proud" of my "ignorance". This is why I'm looking for ideas. If adding an external parametric EQ is THE one and only solution, then I'm all for it. But if I can avoid yet more knobs, then that's my preference. I hear guys around here that sound good and none have an "elaborate" set up. Pretty straight-forward actually.

Anyhow... it seems we hit on something here: My Full Circle might be installed upside down for my needs...

Is this something I can flip on my own, or am I best to just take it to a luthier?
 

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