Loudest, lowest 2x10?

[takeout]

Grindy rock/punk context. Would be replacing a couple of Mesa Diesel 1x15s currently loaded with Faital 15PR400s (like the tone, not crazy about the beaming.)

I figure a couple of 2x10s gives me slightly more cone area. Would also like to stack vertically, get them closer to the ears.

Probably Barefaced? DIY?

 

[abarson]

Lowest? Acme B2. Massive lows.
Grindy? Not by nature, but it probably could do it.

 

[A9X]

Faital 15PR400s (like the tone, not crazy about the beaming.)

15PR400'2 beaming? Not in any significant fashion until >1k or so.

I figure a couple of 2x10s gives me slightly more cone area.

But it's volume displacement you want and smaller cones usually have smaller surrounds which will give less Xmax and Xmech and less SPL.

Would also like to stack vertically, get them closer to the ears.

Thought about a stand? Lighter than another box, requires no power and doesn't waste as much SPL to you. Much cheaper too.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Grindy rock/punk context. Would be replacing a couple of Mesa Diesel 1x15s currently loaded with Faital 15PR400s (like the tone, not crazy about the beaming.)

I figure a couple of 2x10s gives me slightly more cone area. Would also like to stack vertically, get them closer to the ears.

Probably Barefaced? DIY?

Punk? I'd get a couple peaveys

 

[takeout]

15PR400'2 beaming? Not in any significant fashion until >1K or so...

Yeah, but from there up it's brutal - my tone relies on that upper-mid cover to cut through guitars. And I move around a lot onstage, so it's even more noticeable.

 

[A9X]

Yeah, but from there up it's brutal - my tone relies on that upper-mid cover to cut through guitars. And I move around a lot onstage, so it's even more noticeable.

A 15 is going to be 90* at about 1.2kHz and a 10 will be about 90* at about 1.7kHz so not a big difference. DI is determined by the cone size and the cone shape make almost no difference.

You'd do better to add a 6" and a xover (and no, off the shelf one's don't work very well at all) to the 15". Or a large, think JBL2370, and a decent compression driver.

 

[agedhorse]

Have any of you actually looked at polar plots of drivers? There’s a WHOLE lot more to it than simply the diameter.

When the measured data doesn’t match the simplistic theory, is suggests that other factors within a driver’s design impacts polar response. These factors can increase the off axis response by over a full octave.

 

[A9X]

Have any of you actually looked at polar plots of drivers? There’s a WHOLE lot more to it than simply the diameter.

Yes, hundreds, including in the early days designing and building the actual measurement systems.
I've measured my 15PR400 and it's not significantly different from my JBL2225/6 or Beyma 15G40. No way there is going to be an octave difference between these and similar pro drivers. Add a whizzer to one and there'll be a difference, but not with a typical pro driver.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, hundreds, including in the early days designing and building the actual measurement systems.
I've measured my 15PR400 and it's not significantly different from my JBL2225/6 or Beyma 15G40. No way there is going to be an octave difference between these and similar pro drivers. Add a whizzer to one and there'll be a difference, but not with a typical pro driver.

Than how do you explain the data in the polar plots provided by measurement systems like Klippel?

Either you are right, or Klippel is right. Klippel is pretty much the industry’s gold standard.

 

[A9X]

Than how do you explain the data in the polar plots provided by measurement systems like Klippel?

Show me them using similar drivers as I mentioned them. You made the octave claim, you need to back it up.

Either you are right, or Klippel is right. Klippel is pretty much the industry’s gold standard.

Polars is one of the most trivially easy measurements to do and doesn't need anything like a Klippel; Harry Olson's work still stands up very well 70y later (in the areas he could cover then). That's better used for things like motor non-linearities in their numerous forms.
That just felt like a name drop.

 

[FunkHead]

Sub’d

 

[agedhorse]

Since most claims of "beaming" are supported by f = 2C/pi x D, the resulting "beaming frequency" (I am placing this in quotes intentionally" is about 700Hz for a 15" driver. In practice, the off axis response can often be an octave or more higher than this. The off axis response is generally taken as the -6dB point for ~constant power summing purposes when designing multi-driver cabinets (like a 215).

I used the Klippel example because that's one of the platforms that I use when developing or evaluating drivers, and how changes might impact the off axis response. I could have used LMS or AP, but much of the data I have is Klippel.

Using the Faital example, the -6dB point happens to be ~1kHz, but notice that the off axis rolloff slope parallels the slope of the on axis response starting at 1.5kHz rather than continuing at the earlier, steeper slope. This is a critical deviation from the predicted "purely piston" theory because of other factors such as cone material/shape and dust cap material/shape. These elements, just like whizzer cones, function as secondary radiators of higher frequencies. Otherwise, all 15" drivers would have exactly the same off axis rolloff (which obviously they do not).

This is exactly the principle behind the JBL D/K-130, with the aluminum dust cap bonded directly to the top of the bobbin, the aluminum dust cap serves as an effective secondary radiator which improves both on axis and off axis response. This is because the smaller dust cap effectively decreases the diameter of the radiating surface at higher frequencies. When the 15" diaphragm element and the smaller element are acoustically summed, the falling slope of the larger diaphragm is offset somewhat by the secondary radiator.

Here is an example of a 15" 2 way speaker system that is often used to determine summed polar response. I typically use between +/-30 degrees (60 degrees spread) or +/-45 degrees (90 degrees spread) depending on the application but you can see that this 15" driver is well within the -6dB point within this angle at 1kHz and actually ends up being close to 2kHz by the time the on axis and off axis patterns deviate.

My point is that blanket statements based purely on the simplistic theory don't necessarily apply when the entire picture and variables are included in the discussion.

 

[Pat Harris]

A single MAS Bodai 112 will get just about anyone into the ballpark of whatever genre they want. I'm not sure if this particular cab is being made anymore, but there are typically a few used one's floating about. Moves the same amount of air as a 2x12 but with awesome dispersion of the upper midrange frequencies.

 

[Sparky Mark]

I won't attempt to join in with the technical discussion but the 210 cab that I have experienced that does loud and low in combination better than any other I have tried is the Bergantino HD210.

 

[Bassngtr]

An Eden D210XST will get plenty low. About 50 lbs. Awesome cab. IMO almost too low to use by itself. I always paired it with a D210XLT.

 

[juancaminos]

+ on the Eden 210

 

[micguy]

The OP’s goal of loud AND low is...not gonna happen in a bass guitar cabinet. If you want both, then it’ll be big - A pro touring grade subwoofer does loud and low, but they’re BIG.

Bass guitar cabinets are typically made fairly small and loud; they don’t do low well. The notable exception is the Acme stuff, which gives up loud to get a decent amount of low. Acmes are on the order of 6 dB less efficient - you need to feed them 4 times the amount of power for the same output.

 

[triode6L6a]

The Acme Low B2 is a bodacious cabinet, but I'd caution against feeding it to much distortion. They may use something different for the tweeter circuit breaker these days, but when I had my two cabs about 15 years ago, the first time I tried playing a LOUD somewhat overdriven signal into them, the speakers started glowing. It turns out they were using a small light bulb as the circuit breaker (for some esoteric reason), which was behind the speaker, so it looked like the speakers were glowing, and the only way to change the light bulb when I blew it was to take the speaker out, a somewhat tedious process.

Anyway, great cabs, but not for loud distorted bass. If you want a grindy, punk type of sound, I'd probably go with a tweeterless speaker cab.

And yes, Barefaced would definitely be worth a look. Just contact Alex at Barefaced and tell him what you're looking for and he'll be able to suggest something. He's extremely good at that.

 

[alexclaber]

The Acme Low B2 is a bodacious cabinet, but I'd caution against feeding it to much distortion. They may use something different for the tweeter circuit breaker these days, but when I had my two cabs about 15 years ago, the first time I tried playing a LOUD somewhat overdriven signal into them, the speakers started glowing. It turns out they were using a small light bulb as the circuit breaker (for some esoteric reason), which was behind the speaker, so it looked like the speakers were glowing, and the only way to change the light bulb when I blew it was to take the speaker out, a somewhat tedious process.

I used to take an electric screwdriver to gigs because I blew them so often in mine! After a few years of that I did some research and discovered polyswitches and suggested them to Andy, which later replaced the bulbs in Acme cabs.

And yes, Barefaced would definitely be worth a look. Just contact Alex at Barefaced and tell him what you're looking for and he'll be able to suggest something. He's extremely good at that.

Thank you!

 

[Sparky Mark]

The OP’s goal of loud AND low is...not gonna happen in a bass guitar cabinet. If you want both, then it’ll be big - A pro touring grade subwoofer does loud and low, but they’re BIG.

Bass guitar cabinets are typically made fairly small and loud; they don’t do low well. The notable exception is the Acme stuff, which gives up loud to get a decent amount of low. Acmes are on the order of 6 dB less efficient - you need to feed them 4 times the amount of power for the same output.

I agree that a 210 isn't going to perform well on a festival stage but for my rock covers band in small to medium sized venues an HD210 does the job. I was shocked the first time I used a Berg HD210 at how huge it sounded. Although weighty at 54lbs, its compact dimensions make transportation relatively easy even for me (58 years, 5'9").