Low B - How to get it sound well

[Downunderwonder]

xmax
excursion
second harmonic
fundamental
sealed cabinet/non-sealed cabinet...what's the difference?

Thanks loads! xD

xmax is how far the come travels before the coils start to go beyond the magnet. At that point the speaker becomes much less efficient at getting any louder from additional power being applied.

Excursion is cone travel.

2nd harmonic is the tone of the string vibrating with a wavelength of half of the string, ie a zero movement node in the middle of the vibrating length.

fundamental is the tone of the whole string vibrating with maximum movement in the middle.

sealed vs unsealed is a whole book worth. Cooks version: Sealed cabs control the excursion at low frequencies since the internal air progressively works agianst the cones going any further as the cab pressurises and depressurises. This comes at a cost of efficiency vs the unsealed which uses the back wave to reinforce the front wave via the ports. Howver there is significant risk of user error in giving too much power at frequency below the tuning frequency where excursion rises rapidly as the cab doesn't pressurise enough.

 

[Steveman]

Here's my 2 cents

- When using the Low-B, make sure your right hand is more towards the bridge: the closer to the bridge, the more clear and defined the sound will be.

- I prefer a tapered-B string over a regular string, to me it made all the difference in the world. I use Fodera nickel strings witha .130 gauge B-string (I feel the bigger the gauge, the better, the .125 was good but not as good)

 

[Mystic Michael]

Also some mentioned words which are new to me...what do these mean in the context of bass guitars & amps:
xmax
excursion
second harmonic
fundamental
sealed cabinet/non-sealed cabinet...what's the difference?

My, so many terms to define for you; so many questions to answer all at once!

Since you're so very new here - less than a week now - may I ask, have you checked out the Amps FAQ, stickied at the top of the "Amps" forum? Did you not find any useful information there? Done even a quick search on any of the terms listed above?

It's not that no one will answer your questions (many will), nor that your questions are unwelcome per se. It's just that those of us who've been TalkBass members for a few years now tend to see these same basic questions being asked - over & over & over again, by a non-stop procession of noobs - such that some of us can find it quite wearying.

It's so refreshing when, every once in awhile, one comes along who demonstrates the initiative to find at least some of the answers for himself - instead of simply asking to be spoon-fed. Can you appreciate that?

It's late. I'm tired, and long overdue for bed. Someone's going to come along shortly to accuse me of being cranky, hostile & mean to noobs - which is honestly not my intent at all. But I won't be able to convince him otherwise, no matter how hard I try.

OK, I've made my point. Dig in. There's a wealth of great information to be found here, just for the taking - if you'll only put in a little time & effort to go get it.

Over and out...

MM

 

[Downunderwonder]

Late much.

 

[zrxsteve]

@Downunderwonder
Thank you for your reply!

@MysticMichael
Yes I'm one who always searches before asking questions, but I did not find all the terms, or understand all of them, so I decided to ask. You could have ignored the thread, very easy to do, do not click on it.
Also be careful from calling people who don't know technical terms "noobs"... it's quite stupid to do so since there are so many people who can play incredibly but have no idea how their equipment works internally.

 

[boamedt]

I had the same problem. I tried many different cabs and heads. I finally figured out that "they" don't make cabs that handle the low B very well...it took a lot research but I came to the conclusion that watts don't equal volume, they equal clarity....so I found the most powerful head I could find at the time that I could afford, a carvin bx1500 throwing out 700 watts at 8 ohms...I was ecstatic until I found they don't really make cabs that handle that much.( I don't like the sound of a 6x10 or 8x10) so I researched more and more. I found that no one makes one so I will have to build one myself. I found all kinds of cabs to build, fearfuls hadn't been completed yet, greenboy was still designing them( I would love to try one now their done). So I found bill fitzmaurice. I looked over all his cabs u can make at home.( a very appealing concept to me) and I got the plans to the omni 15. I built it, it took three days. It was my first real wood project of significance. I loaded it with a 15 and 8 " horn loaded drivers, plugged in and never heard a b sound so nice

 

[pasco jacorius]

I definitely think a good low B is a matter of overall construction , neck stiffness , string weight etc.. I know a luthier in the south of France who built a 31" 8 string headless bass , and every guy who tried it said the low B is huge and defined.It's difficult to make a low B sound bad when you already have a correct instrument , you know what I mean ? Here's the beast :

 

[CL400Peavey]

I definitely think a good low B is a matter of overall construction , neck stiffness , string weight etc.. I know a luthier in the south of France who built a 31" 8 string headless bass , and every guy who tried it said the low B is huge and defined.It's difficult to make a low B sound bad when you already have a correct instrument , you know what I mean ? Here's the beast :

The best bass in the world isnt going to make much sound if the rest of the signal chain isnt up to reproducing what it is putting out.

 

[basspraiser]

Missing one important bit of info. What bass are you using? Also what type of strings?

Exactly what I was thinking...

 

[basspraiser]

I think your settings and set up are to Blame more than your amp....you think the strings are old....replace them asap and get a good set up from a pro.

Surprising what that combo can do to Perk up a bass!

Peace and good luck

 

[maxiegrant]

I definitely think a good low B is a matter of overall construction , neck stiffness , string weight etc.. I know a luthier in the south of France who built a 31" 8 string headless bass , and every guy who tried it said the low B is huge and defined.It's difficult to make a low B sound bad when you already have a correct instrument , you know what I mean ? Here's the beast :

Want. OMG that is an awesome-looking instrument. I just checked out his site, and I was really digging the style of the "Jivan," which is hilariously a 4-string. I just got started into the 5-string world.

My $.02 on this is it is going to be MOSTLY your fingers and your bass. I have two amps, a Trace Elliot Commando I use at home with a little bitty 12-inch, and a Behringer 450-watt with 4x10 Bugera speakers. Neither of them has trouble reproducing the sound of my B string to my satisfaction, but I have spent a lot of time refining how I pluck strings, and I often sit with a metronome and just drone on that B for several minutes, changing my attack, going staccato/legato and all gradations between, changing where I pluck. I do like how crisp it sounds at the bridge, but I also am a big fan of boom, so I love to get down right at the neck and see how thunderous I can make it sound.

I compose on the bass, so compositionally I treat the low B as a sound effect. If I am playing down there I always try to emphasize a higher B from time to time to reinforce the tonality. It's not just bass cabs, but most people don't actually hear a note that low. We feel it.

 

[BurningSkies]

Most low B issues involve the bass, strings, technique and EQ issues, not the amp/cab in particular.

While most cabs cannot produce the Low B (and lower note) fundamental of 32hz or so, the primary 'meat' to the notes on the B string are the second harmonic, which even a little sealed 110 cab can reproduce.

EQ wise, the key is to NOT boost bass to try to force those deep fundamentals through a rig that can't reproduce them... you will just end up with mud and farting of the driver.

With the bass itself, a good setup will help, as will (especially on lower end basses without a lot of neck stiffness) a large gauge B string.

Finally, and often overlooked, is technique. Make sure that when you are playing your bass unplugged, you get the same basic response from the B string compared to the E string. Playing a B string cleanly can take quite a bit of practice and finesse.

So, the simple thing is to not overboost your bass control. The rest can take some time and experimentation. I often gigged back in the day with a little sealed 112 GK combo (the tiny little metal box model they still make). That combo rolled off at 100 hz, and the B string notes sounded great. Not huge of course, but even with the E string.

+1

^And Ken will appreciate the rarity at which I do that.

Your low B tone starts with your bass. Find a bass with a great low B if you're going to spend time there.

Don't EQ your amp "for" Low B. Notes are a composite of tones, and pushing the areas you think the low B resides tends to not only not help the B but also make a mess of the rest of your sound.

Some amps limit and compress, especially when you're pushing deep lows. I find amps with a bunch of clean headroom (aka higher wattage) help.

*sometimes its hard to HEAR what your amp is doing...because certain frequency ranges are more 'directional' than others, and certain sized speakers are more directional than others. If you're standing right next to your rig, you may not be hearing your low B as well as those are hearing it further from your rig. On stage that means sometimes you have to have faith that it sounds better than what you're hearing up close. -Spend some time with a fairly long lead and play 10 to 15 feet out from your amp to hear what it sounds like from a distance. You may be surprised.

 

[mccartneyman]

I rum my Lakland 55-94 with amps set flat, mids in the 150 Hz range, mid control on the bass set at 500Hz and rolled completely and I have never had a problem having the open B or any notes on the B string come through with definition. This applies to roundwound or flats. My gig amps are a TC Electronic BG250 or a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 with 2 112 cabs. But the Lakie also sounds great through a vintage Ampeg Fliptop B15. About the only amp I have used that didn't handle the B string was an old Bassman Studio 10, but that was in the studio and real lows weren't an issue. Used the amp miked+ DI.

My first fiver was a Lakland 55-01 and it worked just as well as the 55-94. I briefly had a Dingwall Combustion, and the 37" B was clear but not as gutsy as the Laklands. Also had an EBMM Stingray 5 and was not at all happy with the B string sound through the same amps. This leads me to believe that the bass is more important than the amp.

 

[chaosMK]

Make sure your string is not dead. My B sounds best in the first 0-5 hrs of use and loses it's magic around 15-18. I like to restrain/slightly cut lows through most of the signal chain (bass, amp's preamp) and boost slightly in the FX loop just before it hits the power section.

 

[zon6c-f]

I have posted versions of this many times on T B .....My highly respected and esteemed TB friend, CL400Peavey knows where I am going, here...


In 2007, I went to try amps for my Zon 6 string with low B. Had been using headphones for it prior.

Wanted a combo as I am older and at that time in 2007..still healing form groin hernia from yard work..not from hoisting bass cabs...

Nothing worked.. all brands distorted badly..even exotics and boutiques could not handle my low B...with exception of some monsterous exotic cabs which I would not have been able to heft alone..all combos were out of the question.

2009..tried again..went to GC..Tried EVERY amp in their bass room ....ALL OF THEM...Again..all failed ..except the lowly GC house brand Acoustic B-200 Combo. @ $339 or so.. AT LAST...I could hear and enjoy my B-String without hesitation. SOLD!!. Tons of tone..plenty of power..enough for gigs and DI out for PA if needed.

Granted..I appreciated GK and Markbass surely won the tone war..but I never saw a speaker try so hard to escape when I played the B String..LOL...OK..It was only a 12" Markbass combo..but at over 3 X price of GC Acoustic and could even handle a low B??..great for a 4 string..again too pricey even with tone to die for and could not handle B String.

I am not a scientist/ physicist so I offer no argument nor explanation. However, I recommend that you visit at least 3 different stores if possible..Try everything..and LET YOUR EARS HAVE THE VOTE..YOUR WALLET GETS THE VETO..

G C Acoustic worked for me..and ended my B String dilemma.. 2012..bought Acoustic B200 head/ cab seperates rig..love them both.

Please let us know what you chose.

 

[socialleper]

Even though 5 string basses have been around for a while, it seems like getting the perfect tone out of them is still a trick. Of course it needs to be said that "sounding terrible" is relative to the listener, but there are some generalities that can be worked out.

First, as most people have said, the amp usually isn't the cause of a problem with the B string sounding bad. If it sounds bad on two different rigs, the problem isn't really with the amps. Although finding EQ balance with a 5 string is a little different than with a standard tuned 4 string. The lows of an E string articulate completely differently, in my experience, than a B, so if you've pumped your lows up too high like you would with a 4 string, the B might be causing your speakers to 'fart' because they can't handle the lows. If you intend to use the low register notes a lot you may need to refocus your EQ.

Strings are a major component of making a B sound right. Some people prefer a lighter .125/.120 depending in style or setup, I personally prefer a .135 to get the tension right. For me this thicker gauge has a more even response with the other strings, which is backed by a lot of tension charts I've seen. You may also want to play with tapered B strings if you think your B is too muddy or lacks articulation. My personal opinion is that the looser fit at the bridge saddle makes the string a little brighter. It has taken me years to find the right strings, so don't get discouraged, and have deep pockets.

Lastly, a good setup on any bass is a requirement before you can expect to hear the true sound of the bass. The catch 22 is that you can't really set the bridge or neck until you settle on a set of strings so you can match the setup to the particulars of those strings. Since I've learned over the last year a lot about setting up my basses myself, I can tweak them to work with what I'm doing. Its not rocket science, but it isn't something a complete novice can figure out on their own. All that aside, if the neck is bowed too far one way or another, that can have a major effect on a high mass string like a B. Make sure the nut and bridge saddles are free of any debris that may interfere with the string vibrating properly (dust, spurs, chips, etc.) Pickup height can also play a serious roll in what you hear. If the B is too boomy or distorted, you may need to move the pickup away from the string. If the B is thin or anemic, maybe the pickup needs to be closer.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

 

[tsar nicholas]

To be perfectly honest, I rarely play on open "B". I use that string to play lines without having to adjust my left hand.

^ this is.


Also, @OP : get a Zon

 

[klokker]

I went to a tapered B and my problems were completely solved. It cleaned up and sounded great after that.

I'm with those who say that the problem is probably more with your bass, than the amp or cab.

Minor adjustments of pickup height, string height, and head bolt torque made minor differences as well. I would recommend keeping your head bolts just tight enough to have the neck firmly on the body of your bass......but no more.

Seriously, try a tapered B. It was THE answer IME.

 

[mowmwbass]

I saw some YouTube video which explained the importance of the height of each strings. He said that people often set the B string height higher for the clearance so it can swing freely and this is one of the cause of weak B string because it has more distance to the PU.
I found my bass had strong E string and weak B string that was because E string was closer to the PU than B string. I tried raising the E string height and now I feel B string is much stronger. One turn on the bridge made a huuuuuuuuge difference.
Now I can adjust the height of the PU to get better B string tone. Setup of the bass is often very touchy and each adjustment can provide little difference which piles up to the great sound.

 

[Psychobassguy]

Getting the string to speak on the instrument itself first is the biggest part of making a low B (or the even lower F sharp on some basses) even with the other strings. Even if the amp cannot reproduce the fundamental tones strongly, which is 90% of the cabs out there, the upper string harmonics will still make it speak through the amp. Rather than dropping big bucks on new cabinets, getting a proper setup suited to your playing style will make the biggest difference.

Raising the action on the low B to help the string sound depends entirely on the instrument and the player. Lots of guys who dig in hard won't have any issue with a low B being farther away from the pickups because the extra energy being put into the string's pluck is going to make a stronger impulse into the pickup's magnetic field.

I struggled for a long time trying not to raise the low B on my passive Jazz V much farther than the E, but when I finally did, the string's feel tightened and it projected better acoustically and electronically. It is strung through the body. On my two G&L's which are both strung from the bridge, the low B is about the same as the E, and it speaks evenly with the other strings. The Jazz has a set of the original Elixers, and the G&L's have Ernie Ball Slinkys. It's also extremely important to note that I have a very heavy picking/plucking hand.