Low End True-Voice preamp ordered!

[Mike Dimin]

Sure, I can see the visual appeal, and possible cooling benefits if the unit doesn't need to be moved. But....on a gig?

Manley pre's are great for recording but I would never gig with one

Mike

 

[Blue]

So.....I'd just like to know what the purpose of having the tube outside the chassis is?
Is there a good reason for this?

It's cheap to make that way, that's all. I'm trying to be positive, but that unit is SO over priced anyway, this makes it galling.

(Sorry, call me Simon Cowell)

 

[Joe Beets]

The purpose of having the tube sticking out the front is for easy access. Instead of tweaking constantly with your knobs, you can swap out your tube between songs. Just have a big bag of all your favorites hanging on the side of your rack.

 

[jobu3]

I don't know guys... I'd rather put $500 into one of these than an Aguilar tube direct box or the new Ampeg tube DI. It's not as durable as, say, a Countryman 85 DI, but it's a hi-fi piece of equipment and not something that will just get the job done. It's hand made and not mass produced out of crapola components. This isn't a $30 whirlwind DI. I can certainly see it being used for live applications, but I look at it more as a recording device.

I wouldn't take a Manley, an Avalon (I didn't even want to take the U5 into any smoke-filled bars), a Millenia, etc. into the local dive. I'm not saying this is the best thing since sliced bread or that it's on par with $2000+ preamps, but it's not the kind of thing I'd necessarily take to the post wing-night gig either.

As for the tube sticking out the back of the rack-version, Kern IP-777's are built that way. Not a lot of complaints there...

 

[Brian Barrett]

There is absolutely no reason for the tube to be sticking out of the chassis like that. Sure it loooks "unique", but it's a poor design. Especially on the front where there will all kinds of opportunities to bumo into it with something.

Sorry I'm just now getting to this thread. I've been out of town for the day.

Just to explain the idea behind the design of the TVR & R+.

The Tube is in the front so that you are able to switch tubes out with ease, for different tube tone. As many know, RCA, GE, Sylvania, etc. all have different tone characteristics. The idea was that it would be very cool to be able to switch tubes with out pulling the unit out of the rack every time and taking it apart.

The Tube doesn't stick out but an inch. If someone is going to hit the tube, they are going to knock your rack off onto the floor. Most cases have a clearance in the front to fit this pre very easily.

On the other hand, since my preamps are hand built and one at a time, if someone wants the tube mounted inside, I will be happy to do so!

Also, understand that is a proto-type unit and far from a final product. The Actually TV Rack and Rack+ are single space with the logo, etc.

Thanks for the interest,

 

[Brian Barrett]

It's cheap to make that way, that's all. I'm trying to be positive, but that unit is SO over priced anyway, this makes it galling.

(Sorry, call me Simon Cowell)

Actually it would be cheaper to not have the hole cut into the face and just mount it inside...... Simon

 

[bassmonkeee]

It's cheap to make that way, that's all. I'm trying to be positive, but that unit is SO over priced anyway, this makes it galling.

(Sorry, call me Simon Cowell)

Um..."almost gauling?" It was almost an ancient European country?

Not that I am a fan of encouraging poop throwing chimps, but your expertise in the design, and price point of this preamp is based on what, exactly?

I'm certainly glad no one will fall for this SO over priced preamp now that we have seen the true wisdom of someone who can't even spell...thanks for the assist, Bub.

 

[natrab]

I just wanted to say that Brian is an excellent guy, and he has been extremely helpful in this matter. I do see why he made the preamp with the tube sticking out, as I think it's more for studio use than on the road. As he just said, he is flexible and will help someone (like me) out who's not comfortable with the standard setup of the unit.

Consider me a happy customer and I'll be sure to post some reviews once I receive this bad boy.

 

[Blue]

Brian does make good products, and quality makes all the difference. My statement was a bit over the top and not PC correct .. so my apologies to Brian and Crew … but even so, here're some explanations:

Um..."almost gauling?" It was almost an ancient European country?

gall·ing: (gôlng) adj. : Causing extreme irritation or chagrin

cha·grin (sh-grn) n. A keen feeling of mental unease

The price made me uneasy. Better?

... and just to be a chimp ... I didn't use the word "almost" .. I went all the way, and did pre-apologize for candor: "(Sorry, call me Simon Cowell)"

Not that I am a fan of encouraging poop throwing chimps, but your expertise in the design, and price point of this preamp is based on what, exactly?

… based on being a hobbyist who has actually built tube and solid state audio gear.
… based on being an engineer who knows the cost of things.
… based on being in marketing who knows the mark-up of things
… based on running my own company and understanding the need for mark-ups.

As for "Overpriced", I concede that's a matter of opinion.

... if the box is standard, it might be $10, and punching / silkscreening might triple or even quad that estimate. If the box is custom, that will add a lot, but I’m unclear why a custom box would have been made for this device. It also depends how many are being made - these constructions are Very Volume sensitive.

... if it has a true Jensen tranny, that'll add a lot - but I don't know if one is in there. Most folks that install it brag about that feature; they are great units but as they say in Texas … "they’re mighty proud of them". I was shocked last time I saw a price - seems they were like $80 each.

As for no "crapola components", perhaps, but there are not many. Here’s a standard schematic for a similar unit: Invalid Link Removed
There is a PT needed, but they can be $25 in small quantities. Of course one can pay more ….

If is a true N.O.S. tube, that'll add some ... a GREAT one will set you back $50 ... and a tested but cheap one about $13 -- so which is it?

If Brian builds them himself, he prob' has several hours, so that's a couple hundred right there,

In researching to write with some accuracy, I found Demeter makes a similar model for about the same money, albeit with a 12AX7, http://www.demeteramps.com/, and Groove Tube makes one too, also for about the same money. Link Removed These prices are through dealers, which means another level of profit.

Clearly I'm wrong. Brian is selling them; obviously the market thinks it's fairly priced. Still, $500 sounds like a lot to me (I mow my own lawn though, so maybe that explains it).

Consider the TDH Unidyne. It is twice the price (a one new "street's" for a little over $800), but it has the same basic features (interchangable tube feature, respected design, etc) and it has a lot more "stuff" inside (like a power amp and an attenuator and a real cover for the tubes, etc, all in a custom made box. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

... now that we have seen the true wisdom of someone who can't even spell...thanks for the assist, Bub.

You're Welcome! As for "poop throwing chimp", I've not been called that before .... thanks for the new expression!

 

[Blue]

Actually it would be cheaper to not have the hole cut into the face and just mount it inside...... Simon

Brian: I meant the little box with the tube on the top, sorry for the confusion and no disrespect meant, really.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

I don't know guys... I'd rather put $500 into one of these than an Aguilar tube direct box or the new Ampeg tube DI. It's not as durable as, say, a Countryman 85 DI, but it's a hi-fi piece of equipment and not something that will just get the job done. It's hand made and not mass produced out of crapola components. This isn't a $30 whirlwind DI. I can certainly see it being used for live applications, but I look at it more as a recording device.

I wouldn't take a Manley, an Avalon (I didn't even want to take the U5 into any smoke-filled bars), a Millenia, etc. into the local dive. I'm not saying this is the best thing since sliced bread or that it's on par with $2000+ preamps, but it's not the kind of thing I'd necessarily take to the post wing-night gig either.

As for the tube sticking out the back of the rack-version, Kern IP-777's are built that way. Not a lot of complaints there...

+1



Joe.

 

[tombowlus]

Question for Blue:

Which, if any, of the other tube pre's you mentioned employ the 6SL7 tube? To me, that is one of the main attractions of the True-Voice.

Tom.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

"As for the tube sticking out the back of the rack-version, Kern IP-777's are built that way. Not a lot of complaints there... "

No much happening around the back of the rack. However, in the front there are many things that could result in a broken tube: backing into your rig, having something fall against it, bumping it while adjusting something or getting something off the top of the amp, a cord getting caught, etc...

Someone mentioned that it would be recessed in the rack, but my rack case (SKB) does not protrude much beyond the front of the mounting screws, so it would not provide any protection for something like this.

I'm sure this is a wonderful sounding unit. I am a big fan of hand-wired tube gear, but the design seems a bit risky for regular stage use in some bands.

 

[Brian Barrett]

Blue

Thanks for the detailed post and I appreciate your interest in the Preamp. I think you are quite wrong in many statements, one being that I’m overpriced, when you pointed out 3 units all at the same price or more and are mass production units. My Pre’s are built one at a time with top quality components. I did not built this preamp to become rich, that’s for sure! I also use the 6SN7 & 6SL7 verse the standard 12ax7 many use.

Mine is also designed as a preamp with dual 1/4 outs for running a power amp in mono or stereo as well as the XLR. I believe the units its being compared to are really just Tube DI's, but I'll check over them again.

Thanks again for the concern and interest.

PS. you might fill your info out so people have a clue who they are getting feedback from....... not just a troll, which pop up here on occasions.

 

[Brian Barrett]

"As for the tube sticking out the back of the rack-version, Kern IP-777's are built that way. Not a lot of complaints there... "

No much happening around the back of the rack. However, in the front there are many things that could result in a broken tube: backing into your rig, having something fall against it, bumping it while adjusting something or getting something off the top of the amp, a cord getting caught, etc...

Someone mentioned that it would be recessed in the rack, but my rack case (SKB) does not protrude much beyond the front of the mounting screws, so it would not provide any protection for something like this.

I'm sure this is a wonderful sounding unit. I am a big fan of hand-wired tube gear, but the design seems a bit risky for regular stage use in some bands.

The SKB is actually what I used when looking for the clearance. I understand the concern people are having and as I stated above, I am happy to mount the tube inside. Since I do build these one at a time I've done a number of custom setups even including a 4 input pre for a Tube mixer for a customer. So mounting the tube inside is easy enough. I'm looking at moving the tube to the back and rearranging stuff so that everyone will still have access to the tube from the back and changing it out, but it won't stick out the front. I thought the Tube coming out the front was a very cool feature and worked for me and other's so far with no problem. No one has had any issues with the small box and the top mounted tube as well and its gotten criticism as well from those that haven‘t used it. However I do want to build a Tube pre that works for everyone.

Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[jokerjkny]

Brian does make good products, and quality makes all the difference. My statement was a bit over the top and not PC correct .. so my apologies to Brian and Crew … but even so, here're some explanations:


gall·ing: (gôlng) adj. : Causing extreme irritation or chagrin

cha·grin (sh-grn) n. A keen feeling of mental unease

The price made me uneasy. Better?

... and just to be a chimp ... I didn't use the word "almost" .. I went all the way, and did pre-apologize for candor: "(Sorry, call me Simon Cowell)"
(...)

In researching to write with some accuracy, I found Demeter makes a similar model for about the same money, albeit with a 12AX7, http://www.demeteramps.com/, and Groove Tube makes one too, also for about the same money. Link Removed These prices are through dealers, which means another level of profit.
(...)

Consider the TDH Unidyne. It is twice the price (a one new "street's" for a little over $800), but it has the same basic features (interchangable tube feature, respected design, etc) and it has a lot more "stuff" inside (like a power amp and an attenuator and a real cover for the tubes, etc, all in a custom made box. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


(...)

FYI,

dunno how accurate your research was, but the demeter and GT products are tube DI's, not preamps like the Low End product. if anything, those are some incredibly pricey DI's, and i'm surprised you didnt balk at those. but, in terms of bass preamps, its actually quite affordable.

also, comparing the THD Univalve to the Low End product is like apples and oranges. the THD is a handmade guitar amplifier made with PCB boards* in a much larger production shop, all of which keeps the cost down. and the pricing you quoted is actually more in line with "used on ebay" prices.

(*)not to start another flame war,

PCB board made amps when done properly ROCK and are no slouches compared to PTP made amp counterparts. ask any owner of a THD, Fuchs or Bogner amp, they'll concur that they do in fact, ROCK. my Flexi and ODS-30 ROCK!

 

[Blue]

Which, if any, of the other tube pre's you mentioned employ the 6SL7 tube? To me, that is one of the main attractions of the True-Voice. Tom.

None, and point well taken. AFAIK, only Sovtek makes them these days. I confess to no personal experience with the Sovtek, but it seems reasonable to suspect they have not the incentive (read as selling tonnes of them) to make a great one. I do own a custom Tweed type with 6SL7's and agree that at least the old 6S*7's offer a sonic advantage over the 12A*7 types. One could readily convert many 12A*7 designs - so open up your F-1X preamps and make an improvement!

I think you are quite wrong in many statements, one being that I’m overpriced, when you pointed out 3 units all at the same price or more and are mass production units. My Pre’s are built one at a time with top quality components. I did not built this preamp to become rich, that’s for sure! I also use the 6SN7 & 6SL7 verse the standard 12ax7 many use.

Certainly there is a dif' between "mass production" and "Hand Made With Love". I have no doubt that the components you use are top quality - but I do not suspect there are many. I am confident you are not getting rich, and I, like many, am happy you make good stuff. Nowhere did I belittle your need to pay the bills - I supported it (didn't I?).

Mine is also designed as a preamp with dual 1/4 outs for running a power amp in mono or stereo as well as the XLR. I believe the units its being compared to are really just Tube DI's, but I'll check over them again.

... the Demeter and GT products are tube DI's, not preamps like the Low End product. If anything, those are some incredibly pricey DI's, and I'm surprised you didnt balk at those. but, in terms of bass preamps, its actually quite affordable.

What is different that would effect the cost between DI's and the near-knobless True Voice preamp? Not much I'm sure you'll agree - mostly just a different circuit (adding gain).

I did state the Demeter and GT products are comparable priced to the Low End ... with a note that they also include an extra layer of profit (which elsewhere I stated was "fair").

As for "Overpriced", I concede that's a matter of opinion ... Clearly I'm wrong. Brian is selling them; obviously the market thinks it's fairly priced. Still, $500 sounds like a lot to me (I mow my own lawn though, so maybe that explains it).

Again, I'm not putting down Low End products - while I confess too not having heard them, by reputation they sound great. This all started by a simple comment that mounting the socket in the top of a standard box was an inexpensive design -- and it is! OK - I said "cheap", clearly not the PC word. Actually this all started by Gaul vs. gall, but let’s not reopen that tincan!

There is nothing wrong with inexpensive design. As a practicing engineer, I consider it genius to create great value using inexpensive design. Leo Fender made a career out of it.

also, comparing the THD Univalve to the Low End product is like apples and oranges. the THD is a handmade guitar amplifier made with PCB boards* in a much larger production shop, all of which keeps the cost down.

While this is true - if you counted the number of solders on the True Voice it's probably about the same as the final assembly solders on the THD Univalve ... and fwiw, THD UNI- VALVE - 15 WATT HEAD RETAIL $995.00 YOUR PRICE: $845.00 Link Removed .. a little over $800 was my wording ... had not yet actually looked it up.

Well I'm almost done, having apologized to Brian several times here and elsewhere for expressing an opinion, which is not wholly without objective basis.

Do I own a Walter Woods? No - because it's too rich for my blood. Do I own an Alembic? Yes - because I was able to purchase it 27 years ago when it was "only" $2000. It's a great bass - frankly as good as any 4 string ever made by anyone (it's that good) but I won't buy another - In my frank opinion, they too are overpriced.

As for the True Voice - I'll get to hear one someday, but the price makes me uneasy. Just my opinion.

One final thought -

.. you might fill your info out so people have a clue who they are getting feedback from....... not just a troll, which pop up here on occasions.

Jeez Brian - all this backlash makes me nervous .. but I did it any way; I just hope no one burns my house down for having an opinion.

 

[jokerjkny]

i'll let my collegues take care of the rest...

(...)What is different that would effect the cost between DI's and the near-knobless True Voice preamp? Not much I'm sure you'll agree - mostly just a different circuit (adding gain).

I did state the Demeter and GT products are comparable priced to the Low End ... with a note that they also include an extra layer of profit (which elsewhere I stated was "fair").
(...)

you can purchase these products straight from the dealer, i.e. a Demeter VTDB-2B tube DI is $549 from Invalid Link Removed and dealer. same with the Link Removed. where's that layer coming from again? how's brian's pricing any different?

besides, you want a preamp gain stage and some knobs? how about an Avalon's U5? hmm, no tube. guess you're gonna rail against their pricing as well. again, your point?

While this is true - if you counted the number of solders on the True Voice it's probably about the same as the final assembly solders on the THD Univalve ... and fwiw, THD UNI- VALVE - 15 WATT HEAD RETAIL $995.00 YOUR PRICE: $845.00 Link Removed .. a little over $800 was my wording ... had not yet actually looked it up.
[/img]

wow, that's ridiculous, and you've opened up an univalve to count this?

again, because you're comparing apples to oranges, your argument means nothing. using your technical logic, why not explain to me why the 2 channel Apogee Mini-Me costs $1345, while the 2 channel Tascam US122 costs $199?

Well I'm almost done, having apologized to Brian several times here and elsewhere for expressing an opinion, which is not wholly without objective basis.
(...)

well, calling a person's pricing as ridiculous, and yet having NO experience with said product will get this kind of "backlash".

 

[fdeck]

It also depends how many are being made - these constructions are Very Volume sensitive.

This has been my experience running a home based business that sells electronic gadgets (none are music related -- yet). My rule of thumb is that the selling price has to be at least 3x the cost-of-goods to make it worth pursuing. There are so many hidden costs that people don't think about. For instance:

1. Customer support. I field roughly 3 to 4 e-mails per order, and I feel compelled to give thoughtful responses.

2. Customization.

3. If it is required for a product, regulatory testing such as UL, FCC, and CE, can cost thousands of dollars.

4. Scrappage, screw-ups, and obsolescence.

5. To make the production process tolerable, it is often necessary to have dedicated tools and workspace.

6. The occasional Customer From Hell.

7. The cost of developing the products that never made it to market.

Invalid Link Removed

I took a look at this schematic. Not being a tube lover, I wonder what the point is. The noise spec on this preamp would be comparable to a mid grade op amp, and with such a low distortion figure, it would not even sound different than an op amp. It does exhibit "soft clipping," but only at an output level that would drive most power amps into hard clipping. But I understand that tubes are far from obsolete in bass gear, and I have learned not to fight it.

 

[tombowlus]

None, and point well taken. AFAIK, only Sovtek makes them these days. I confess to no personal experience with the Sovtek, but it seems reasonable to suspect they have not the incentive (read as selling tonnes of them) to make a great one. I do own a custom Tweed type with 6SL7's and agree that at least the old 6S*7's offer a sonic advantage over the 12A*7 types. One could readily convert many 12A*7 designs - so open up your F-1X preamps and make an improvement!

[Ears perk up!] Oh man, I may need to speak with you further about "readily converting" my F-1X!!!