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Double Bass Lucky Me, I Guess

+1. In fact, the luthier I have been using for the last 7-8 years now keeps talking me out of modifications that I propose (Gee, what do you think about upgrading these tuners? ... "What for? The ones you have now work fine"!).

The only aspect of luthiers/repair experiences that is kind of bogus is when a luthier is dealing with you and your bass just fine and then somebody like Ron Carter arrives. Then, it's all rush rush get you out the door. I specifically remember that happening to me 3 times (Ron Carter, Miroslav Vitous and somebody who played in the NY Phil), many years ago. In fact, at the moment when Ron Carter came in, the guy was fitting me a new bridge. All of a sudden, zip zap, it was done. I don't go to that person any more (and this is a "highly regarded" luthier).

While it's true that some issues are "quick fixes", in general I am suspicious of people who work "zip zap."

Contrast that with the guy who I see now - he also fit me a new bridge once, and I started making small talk. He asked me to please stop talking. Not while he's fitting a bridge ... He's also a very highly regarded luthier. I was there for quite a while ... keeping my mouth shut.
I'm quite sure I know who is the first "highly regarded" luthier referred to in your post. Frankly, with the possible exception of the guy whose name is on the business, I've never regarded them all that highly. That's based on some sloppy, corner-cutting work that I saw come out of that shop. It was actually on the bass of one of their professional "family" of players. The air of condescension and snobbery can get pretty thick at that location. One can access substantially better workmanship at substantially lower prices. I'm not surprised you left.
 
haha.. I'm guessing I know who that is too...

but come on, if Ron Carter or some highly regarded Symphony Player showed up in your home, you would drop your "friend" too ... so don't be so surprised about that..

Sorry to take it to the "money" route.. but I'm sure he can get a lot more money and even business maybe from Ron Carter or Highly regarded Symphonic guy .. .

It just sounds like bad timing.. ha.
 
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haha.. I'm guessing I know who that is too...

but come on, if Ron Carter or some highly regarded Symphony Player showed up in your home, you would drop your "friend" too ... so don't be so surprised about that..

Sorry to take it to the "money" route.. but I'm sure they can get a lot more money and even business maybe from Ron Carter or Highly regarded Symphonic guy .. .

It just sounds like bad timing.. ha.
Wow-- I disagree with just about everything you said. :) No, if Ron Carter or some highly regarded symphony showed up at my home, then I would not drop a friend. That's sure not how I operate. Now, with regard to a business, there's no excuse to shortchange one customer because another shows up. That doesn't mean all customers are or should be treated alike. Integrity dictates that every customer receive a proper level of service. Rushing a job so that you can get to your "whale" customer is inappropriate and insulting. Just because it happens and is often not surprising doesn't make it right.
 
I'm not saying its appropriate or the "right" thing to do.. I'm saying that it is what business is about.. and unfortunately just a fact of life now-a-days..

I believe things have changed over the years to worse in terms of integrity.. but it's quite common that there is tier levels of anything.. Look at our entire society in general..

You can't deny it, is what I'm saying.. not that it's "right"

As I said in my previous post, you shouldn't be surprised..

that luthier should have told the "not so valued customer" that they will finish it but they just need to take care of something first or need more time.. Like all big shady companies do.. .. etc.. Rushing it is the "wrong" thing to do I agree.. but they don't call it "Cut-throat" for nothing..

This is not a reflection of how I believe, but the reality of what I see in today's Capitalist Entrenchment of Economics..
 
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I would fully expect Jake to either ask me if it was okay to attend to Mr. Carter (it almost definitely would be) or explain to Mr. Carter that he would love to take care of him, but he was with a customer. I wouldn't expect that of just anyone, but when you have a long term business relationship/friendship, I think it's something to count on. Jake is probably the 12th closest bass luthier to me by a hundred miles are so, but that's one of many reasons, I hold out for him in anything, but an emergency or a simple repair.

It's been said here many times, your luthier will become one of those important relationships in your life and getting it right is important.

YMMV, of course.
 
^^^yessir. I am not a full time pro, so unless I have a gig booked, I tell guys to push my work back if a working bassist needs something done fast so he/she can earn his/her living. Now, that may be a given for alot of guys, but at least the issue is out in the open.
 
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Some people (and some of them just happen to be luthiers) get into this awestruck thing. But my experience has overwhelmingly been that the fraternity of bassists has always been just that -- a group of musicians that recognize the unique challenges involved in playing the same special instrument. And they (we) feel uniquely bonded together by that. There's no star tripping involved, at least not in the world of jazz that I inhabited back in those days. Quite the opposite.

Ron didn't appear to be in any state of emergency. He may have just been early for his own appointment. Or maybe he didn't need one, but still recognized that some work was being done on another bass. And the symphony guy seemed very interested in what was happening on the bench.

And I was also a full time working bassist in those days.
 
Some people (and some of them just happen to be luthiers) get into this awestruck thing. But my experience has overwhelmingly been that the fraternity of bassists has always been just that -- a group of musicians that recognize the unique challenges involved in playing the same special instrument. And they (we) feel uniquely bonded together by that. There's no star tripping involved, at least not in the world of jazz that I inhabited back in those days. Quite the opposite.

Ron didn't appear to be in any state of emergency. He may have just been early for his own appointment. Or maybe he didn't need one, but still recognized that some work was being done on another bass. And the symphony guy seemed very interested in what was happening on the bench.

And I was also a full time working bassist in those days.
Yes, indeed! I agree on all counts.

Now, as to this:
I'm not saying its appropriate or the "right" thing to do.. I'm saying that it is what business is about.. and unfortunately just a fact of life now-a-days..

I believe things have changed over the years to worse in terms of integrity.. but it's quite common that there is tier levels of anything.. Look at our entire society in general..

You can't deny it, is what I'm saying.. not that it's "right"

As I said in my previous post, you shouldn't be surprised..

that luthier should have told the "not so valued customer" that they will finish it but they just need to take care of something first or need more time.. Like all big shady companies do.. .. etc.. Rushing it is the "wrong" thing to do I agree.. but they don't call it "Cut-throat" for nothing..

This is not a reflection of how I believe, but the reality of what I see in today's Capitalist Entrenchment of Economics..

Okay, we agree that the behavior reported was inappropriate and not "right." I agree that, over my lifetime, I have observed what I perceive as a general decline in integrity across all businesses. I am hardly naive and I don't deny it. All of that said, my point of view and experience align quite well with Daveming's post quoted above. I do not expect reputable luthiers to act in that fashion. The fine luthiers who I've had the pleasure to know and know of do not act like that.

The business of luthiery is, generally, not cut-throat at all. We're talking about a highly skilled and specialized craft practiced by dedicated individuals who, in my experience, count on their devotion and love for what they do to fill in for the compensation that they generally don't get in the form of $$$. I don't know any fine double-bass luthiers who are getting rich doing what they do. Maybe there are some-- I just haven't met them and/or haven't heard of them.

So, in the end, as regards luthiery, your observations and point of view do seem to stem mostly from how you believe and not from the reality that most of us know and share. That you could even begin to align double-bass luthiery with a phrase such as "Capitalist Entrenchment of Economics" speaks volumes about your point of view and it's one that I surely don't share.

...and now a story. :) My first experience with a real luthier was in 1975. I had landed a student apprenticeship in a professional symphony. I was playing a 1967 Kay C-1. It was all my parents could afford. My teacher, a member of the orchestra, took me to Gennaro DeLuccia, a world-renowned luthier in Miami, FL. Every so often, the Miami Herald would run a story on him as he was a third or fourth generation luthier-- his ancestors having been Italian luthiers. String players from all over would fly to Miami just to have the guy work on their instruments. I still remember the look on his face when he saw the Kay! A conversation took place between him and my teacher-- all in Italian. A week or so later, I returned. He had re-planed and dressed my fingerboard, carved a new bridge to match, re-shaped the nut, and reset the soundpost. The Kay became a playable orchestra bass-- well as playable an orchestra bass as a Kay could be. The charge? $50 or so, as I recall. Think of the hours the guy spent. In terms of his time, he surely took a big loss. It was all to help a kid who had little to no resources. Okay, that was 40 years ago. I still think that most of the luthiers we all discuss here often are of that mindset and I have witnessed them acting in accord with that.
 
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Anytime I've been to Gage's with my bass, I've never gotten pushed aside so they could work on somebody else's bass. I've been introduced to Drew Gress, Mark Helias, Buster Williams, Nikki Parrott buncha other folks, just like I was one of the guys. The ONLY time I was informed that they needed to stop work was for an emergency repair for someone on their way to a gig.
 
Anytime I've been to Gage's with my bass, I've never gotten pushed aside so they could work on somebody else's bass. I've been introduced to Drew Gress, Mark Helias, Buster Williams, Nikki Parrott buncha other folks, just like I was one of the guys. The ONLY time I was informed that they needed to stop work was for an emergency repair for someone on their way to a gig.
Lucky you, I guess. :D
 
Following up on drurb's story with one of my own:

I had played electric bass for 20 years when I finally followed through on a threat I had been making for decades to pick up the DB. Thanks to a lucky strike on craigslist, I got a screaming deal on a beautiful old Hofner ply. Actually, what was left of a formerly beautiful Hofner may be a more accurate description. Apart from looking like it had done hard time in a chicken coop, its' major problem was that it had been set up left-handed for the previous owner. I happen to be the only right-handed member of a family of southpaws, so I wasn't going to get far playing it backwards.

Following recommendations made in this forum, I brought the bass to Bill Merchant. He restrung it, recut the bridge, trimmed and reset the soundpost, and apologized because he had no clamps to lend me to fix the open seams. He did, however, give me a baggie of glue granules, explained how to prepare hide glue and how to properly clamp a seam shut.

In so doing, he changed the course of my life. The above cost me $100, plus tax. I now consider him to be a mentor and a personal friend. I don't visit him often, because he propelled me toward self-sufficiency at his own expense, but when I do, I leave buzzing with ideas.

The denouement to that story is pretty neat, and illustrates the fact that the player-luthier relationship is not necessarily a one-way street, so I'll tell that part too.

In my working life, my responsibilities include oversight of government grants for nonprofit social service agencies. Bill, as those who know him are aware, is an ardent conservationist who is passionate about preserving local history.

During a typically freewheeling conversation that took place while I was visiting him in the shop a few years ago, he told me that his historical society had hit a wall financially in their efforts to preserve a local building that many years ago was significant to New York State's canal system.

I explained the grant process to him, told him who to contact and what to do, and if he had a problem, to call me. There was no quid pro quo asked or expected; rather, I was freely sharing information about my field of "expertise" as he had done with his own to get me started.

He emailed me a few months ago to let me know that they had been awarded their grant and would be able to preserve this noteworthy building, and graciously thanked me for getting him started down that path. I'm very proud of that.
 
Following up on drurb's story with one of my own:

I had played electric bass for 20 years when I finally followed through on a threat I had been making for decades to pick up the DB. Thanks to a lucky strike on craigslist, I got a screaming deal on a beautiful old Hofner ply. Actually, what was left of a formerly beautiful Hofner may be a more accurate description. Apart from looking like it had done hard time in a chicken coop, its' major problem was that it had been set up left-handed for the previous owner. I happen to be the only right-handed member of a family of southpaws, so I wasn't going to get far playing it backwards.

Following recommendations made in this forum, I brought the bass to Bill Merchant. He restrung it, recut the bridge, trimmed and reset the soundpost, and apologized because he had no clamps to lend me to fix the open seams. He did, however, give me a baggie of glue granules, explained how to prepare hide glue and how to properly clamp a seam shut.

In so doing, he changed the course of my life. The above cost me $100, plus tax. I now consider him to be a mentor and a personal friend. I don't visit him often, because he propelled me toward self-sufficiency at his own expense, but when I do, I leave buzzing with ideas.

The denouement to that story is pretty neat, and illustrates the fact that the player-luthier relationship is not necessarily a one-way street, so I'll tell that part too.

In my working life, my responsibilities include oversight of government grants for nonprofit social service agencies. Bill, as those who know him are aware, is an ardent conservationist who is passionate about preserving local history.

During a typically freewheeling conversation that took place while I was visiting him in the shop a few years ago, he told me that his historical society had hit a wall financially in their efforts to preserve a local building that many years ago was significant to New York State's canal system.

I explained the grant process to him, told him who to contact and what to do, and if he had a problem, to call me. There was no quid pro quo asked or expected; rather, I was freely sharing information about my field of "expertise" as he had done with his own to get me started.

He emailed me a few months ago to let me know that they had been awarded their grant and would be able to preserve this noteworthy building, and graciously thanked me for getting him started down that path. I'm very proud of that.
Great story! Thanks for sharing. You should, indeed, be proud of that!
 
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The only aspect of luthiers/repair experiences that is kind of bogus is when a luthier is dealing with you and your bass just fine and then somebody like Ron Carter arrives. Then, it's all rush rush get you out the door. I specifically remember that happening to me 3 times.

and

" Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. "



Daveming, What doesn't make sense about apparently 3 times you have been in a situation where you've been "zip-zapped" out of the way for a more "money" customer???

yeah.. "that doesn't make sense"? Sorry but This made "sense" 3 times already like you said.. they took the "money route".

- Nowehere, in any of my post, do I talk about "all lutheirs" in this world are cut-throat business people.. I specifically am responding to this one guy you so had 3 times a "zip-zip" happen.

All the sudden everybody thinks I'm attacking the Lutheirs of the world!



But my experience has overwhelmingly been that the fraternity of bassists has always been just that -- a group of musicians that recognize the unique challenges involved in playing the same special instrument.



Yes, and we also have to recognize that upright bass "business" is slowly being changed (just like the Symphonic Orchestras being forced to do something about their financial problems!) in terms of the push now for EUB - Electric Upright Basses or Portable basses.. This can and does put a strain on double bass sales as well as the Orchestra plunge in Popularity..



Ron didn't appear to be in any state of emergency. He may have just been early for his own appointment. Or maybe he didn't need one, but still recognized that some work was being done on another bass. And the symphony guy seemed very interested in what was happening on the bench.



And here lies the problem! - Ron and the highly regarded Symphony guy, Had they followed your "fraternity of Bassists bond", clearly also should have told the luthier to finish with you! You even said they didn't appear in any state of Emergency and the Symphony guy seemed interested in what was happening on the bench! So why didn't they bond??!!

Now to Drurb,

Look, I also don't expect "business" to be performed in that manner either but I do know this, That great story you told about the luthier fixing your bass for a low cost, is a great story, but I wouldn't doubt your "Italian speaking" teacher is the reason you got "hooked" up..

Love this part.
A conversation took place between him and my teacher-- all in Italian.

You know Italians stick together and are very loyal to each other. Just another aspect of busine... ah nevermind.. hehe.

So to end this, I do believe that all luthiers in general are great, fun, good-loving people. I just have unfortunately experienced (just like DaveMing!!) some aspects of business, when it comes to seeing a certain Luthier.
 
Now to Drurb,

Look, I also don't expect "business" to be performed in that manner either but I do know this, That great story you told about the luthier fixing your bass for a low cost, is a great story, but I wouldn't doubt your "Italian speaking" teacher is the reason you got "hooked" up..

Love this part.


You know Italians stick together and are very loyal to each other. Just another aspect of busine... ah nevermind.. hehe.

So to end this, I do believe that all luthiers in general are great, fun, good-loving people. I just have unfortunately experienced (just like DaveMing!!) some aspects of business, when it comes to seeing a certain Luthier.

Of course my teacher was the reason that I got "hooked up" with the luthier! I view that as stemming largely from Daveming's bonding notion as opposed to having resulted largely from Italian loyalty and some ultimate profit motive. Really now, had I just walked into DeLuccia's shop with my Kay bass, he likely would not have done what he did. Why would he without knowing my story? It was because my teacher vouched for me and asked for help that the result was what it was. DeLuccia did a favor for me and my teacher. Indeed, my teacher was central to the process. That fact does not detract from the kindness that was done.

Finally, no one here suggested that you thought the treatment Daveming was appropriate or right. The issue was that you suggested that such behavior is to be expected when dealing with business-people in general and that included luthiers. You didn't effectively say, "Well, it's to be expected from that luthier." You effectively said, "It's to be expected." There's a fundamental difference there and I have argued that, in general, double-bass luthiers conduct their businesses in a manner such that the treatment Daveming reported is not to be expected.

Please go back and read your own posts. You were not speaking about that "one guy."

...but come on, if Ron Carter or some highly regarded Symphony Player showed up in your home, you would drop your "friend" too ... so don't be so surprised about that..

I'm not saying its appropriate or the "right" thing to do.. I'm saying that it is what business is about.. and unfortunately just a fact of life now-a-days..

I believe things have changed over the years to worse in terms of integrity.. but it's quite common that there is tier levels of anything.. Look at our entire society in general..

You can't deny it, is what I'm saying.. not that it's "right"

As I said in my previous post, you shouldn't be surprised..
 
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What?

except for the fact that I did say If Ron showed up in "your" home, YOU would probably do the same...

notice key words.. Your and you... I didn't say "They and them or all of them".. ??

and

that's what "business" is about refers to aspects of business.. of following greater profits.. in which Daveming experienced firsthand - three times with this guy..

so...

Like I said, I end this with Luthiers are great and much needed, but DaveMing experienced an aspect of business while visiting one guy..

And unless I see Daveming with a friend in his home one day, and the most recorded bass player in jazz history walks in and he doesn't give priority to him, I dont' expect him to be surprised that he wouldn't do the same, as unfortunate as it is..
 
What?

except for the fact that I did say If Ron showed up in "your" home, YOU would probably do the same...

notice key words.. Your and you... I didn't say "They and them or all of them".. ??

and

that's what "business" is about refers to aspects of business.. of following greater profits.. in which Daveming experienced firsthand - three times with this guy..

so...

Like I said, I end this with Luthiers are great and much needed, but DaveMing experienced an aspect of business while visiting one guy..

And unless I see Daveming with a friend in his home one day, and the most recorded bass player in jazz history walks in and he doesn't give priority to him, I dont' expect him to be surprised that he wouldn't do the same, as unfortunate as it is..
Really now, you don't have to explicitly write the words "they" and "them" to make broad generalizations-- and you did. That's evidenced by the excerpts of yours that I quoted. You even said, "...that is what business is about..." If you were limiting your comments to one guy, then you'd have said something akin to, "For him, that is what business is about." You clearly did not say anything that incorporated such a limitation. The point is that you explained the undesirable behavior as being a general aspect of business and, because of that, one should not be surprised by it. It was I, not you, who argued that, in general, businesses run by double-bass luthiers do not conform to those aspects. As such, I argued that the generalization does not apply to the very group of business-people that includes those who are members of the particular establishment referred to by Daveming.

If you wrote something other than what you meant to say, then just say that. Suggesting that the words aren't there just doesn't go over well.

backpedal.gif
 
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If you were limiting your comments to one guy, then you'd have said, "For him, that is what business is about." You clearly did not say anything that incorporated such a limitation. The point is that you explained the undesirable behavior as being a general aspect of business and, because of that, one should not be surprised by it. It was I, not you, who argued that, in general, businesses run by double-bass luthiers do not conform to those aspects.


For whatever reaason, You are determined to make my comment sound like "Luthiers are devious little corporate devils" aye Drurb? for what?

How many times do I have to tell you I like Luthiers and need them. But, (now I can generalize), they are a business unless they are independently wealthy. What is so obscure about this idea or comment?

I neither care or need to worry about this but since you speak of Evidence,

Here is your evidence, Daveming had it happen 3 times to him and I have also my own stories and

Rushing a job so that you can get to your "whale" customer is inappropriate and insulting. Just because it happens and is often not surprising doesn't make it right.

which I assume means you acknowledged exactly what I meant in the first post,.. Or am I "assuming" wrong like you are with my comment as well..
 
For whatever reaason, You are determined to make my comment sound like "Luthiers are devious little corporate devils" aye Drurb? for what?

How many times do I have to tell you I like Luthiers and need them. But, (now I can generalize), they are a business unless they are independently wealthy. What is so obscure about this idea or comment?

I neither care or need to worry about this but since you speak of Evidence,

Here is your evidence, Daveming had it happen 3 times to him and I have also my own stories and



which I assume means you acknowledged exactly what I meant in the first post,.. Or am I "assuming" wrong like you are..
You are not assuming wrong like I am simply because I am not making assumptions. I am not suggesting that you said that luthiers are corporate devils or anything like that. Apparently, you do care because you are answering. Yes, there are bad apples in all businesses. Some businesses seem to have more than their fair share. I'll try once more. Daveming experienced bad behavior. Yes, he experienced it three times-- all at a single shop. You very clearly said he should not be surprised because what he experienced conforms to how business is conducted today. I countered that, in general, for double-bass luthiers, that is not how business is conducted and expectations based on your view of current business practices simply do not apply to that group. No more, no less.

Good to know that some of your best friends are luthiers. :)
 
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