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Double Bass Luthier school vs. apprenticeship
- Thread starter mmoehring
- Start date
Thanks everyone for your responses so far. To give you a background on me:
I have a BA in music education. I am currently an orchestra director for middle school and high school. I LOVE what I do. It is a great fun job. I've been repairing, restoring, doing set ups on instruments for 2-3 years now. I am really enjoying it. I feel that I could have a strong future in luthiery. I now trying to decide if I want to study luthiery and go back to teaching while doing repairs and building on the side OR become a full time luthier after I receive training.
My decision between formal training and a learner paid apprenticeship is a tough decision too. Two of the countries top bass luthiers have given me conflicting views on my education. Again thanks everyone, keep it up. And let's keep it civil
Mitch
Your background makes a big difference in my response.
You are an instructional learner. Having a BA and being a teacher is what leads me to that conclusion. In order to grasp concepts you must read the instructions first and then complete the task (more or less).
Your best path would be to take the course first and then the luthier apprenticeship. It is how you have approached your learning career to this point, and you may not get the same results doing it the other way around.
Facts not in evidence. Just because someone followed a formal instructional path does not mean he is an "instructional learner" who "must" first. He could be equally or more capable following a more experiential approach. In the field we're discussing (teaching) one really has no choice but to obtain the formal training first.
I hope this doesn't develop into one of these binary internet arguments where folks line up on one side of the other when the truth actually lies in the middle.
In professions requiring a high degree of specialized skill, it is typical for didactic learning to be coupled with some sort of apprenticeship. That's true in academics (Ph.D. followed by post-doc experience), medicine, plumbing, electrical, auto repair, luthiery. In some professions, the apprenticeship may be all that's required for success by some but I would contend that formal training confers an advantage. Arnold's statement supports that view when it comes to luthiery.
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
You beat me to it! I know there are a lot of different view points on this topic. This is what I want. I want to hear all sides, and Drurb, I agree the "answer" may lie somewhere in the middle. I thank you all. If you believe you know someone worth speaking to, please send me their info. Or better yet, anyone that accepts apprentices, I would love to hear what the process from their perspective is.
Yes and Arnold you do both exceptionally well.... As I mentioned I am not a maker, but I look up to these cats as the giants in bass luthiery.
Well said!
My 2 Cents:
I'm working for a a builder making violins and mandolins, a couple days a week. I sharpen tools, prep stock for re-sawing, flatten and square-up plates for joining, prep, saw and bend ribs linings and purfling, rough-graduate plates etc. I consider myself very lucky to have a good friend who pays me to help him out and basically is training me in all of these skills. My progress is very slow, but with each batch of instruments (we have 2-4 going at a time) I am more independent and efficient. Otherwise I am a stay-at-home dad of a 3yo and 6mo, and I gig nights and weekends. I really wanted to attend Oberlin this year, or the UNH violin workshops, but just couldn't swing it schedule-wise.
I'm 30-something, and kind of regret not looking more seriously into lutherie schools or workshops pre-kiddos, when it would have been a lot easier, but I'm also realizing that I have to just motivate myself as much as possible and devour anything I can read, learn as much as I can from my maestro, and make the best of where I am right now.
That's tough when I spend my days trying to wear out a 3yo while pacifying a 6mo...they go to bed and all I want to do is drink some scotch and watch Sherlock!
You're also very lucky if you can find a paid apprentice position. I know of people who completed the course at Violin Making School of America and are basically in the same type of job I'm in (albeit working full time in the shops of renowned masters who get high-end master instruments across their benches). They are sharpening tools, flattening wood, lapping plane soles, tuning band saws etc.
I'd say take the chance to work in a shop if you can, and decide in a year or two if you want to go to school. You can learn a lot just being around the work and being insatiably inquisitive and driven.
As an aside, if you can get your hands on the new volume edited by Tom Wilder , do. I've also been lucky enough to have access to a copy, and it's pretty astounding.
Good luck!
If I may inject a dose of reality to your quest: 25 years ago, anyone who could do a half-decent job setting-up, repairing, or building a bass could find plenty of work (unless he/she was in the absolute boonies). Nowadays, the major markets have become saturated with bass fixers and makers. To me this is indicative of folks wanting to do something meaningful instead of pushing electrons and paper around. The current competitive pressures are no longer local, state-wide or even national, but global. If your goal is to be a luthier, you should pursue it, but you have to think like a business person as well as a craftsman, or you will sink like a rock in a pond. You need to ask yourself (and answer) a bunch of questions, like: How can I differentiate myself from others nearby? Is there a market for my services/products? How will I tap into the market? How will I provide my family with health coverage? How will I attract and retain business, etc., etc. If your goal is to work in someone else's shop, you should not expect to make a huge amount of money. If your goal is to make and sell your own instruments, you had better make incredible ones, because the quality of what's available keeps going up, and there are more and more people doing it. This is not said to discourage you, but to add other than just technical considerations to your thought process.
I think both concepts have their own merits. Like all aspects of art, there are pros and cons when it comes to training over trade apprenticeships. Both have the ability to advance you in a field. I personally believe that the best is a combination of both. Classical training and learning under masters via an apprenticeship could make for a better experience as a whole.
Wow, thats a statement.
So.....
Being a builder your designs are un restrained, you can alter the shape, make it any colour you want, heck you can even blend in every stuff up thats made. Its a bit thin on top, thats all right thats for tone enhancement or whatever statement you want to make. You can build 5 or 50 or 500 they may sell they may not, the term used Im a builder can be any 5 yr old kid through to a 100yr old person. If they make the instrument then they are a ""Builder"" be that quality or poor.
Being a well respected builder of fine instruments is another kettle of fish. Its like saying Im a driver of a car and I drive a car well, but compared to a race car driver Im a hack driver.
Being a repairer, you have to repair the instrument back to the same it was before, so you are limited by the colour choice "you have to be good at mixing and matching colours", you are limited by the wood choice, "you have to be good at blending in splices and patches" you have to maintain the instrument within the design constraints of the original builder. You have to repair the instrument to the customers satisfaction, not to your satisfaction but the customers.
Knowing this, and making the statement, really displays intolerance to other peoples views.
I can build a cheap ass violin for a hundred bucks, ,look at ebay there being pumped out by the hundreds per day, repairing them into a musical instrument that can respond and play well, is as I quoted an Art. Yes building can be an artform as well.
As in, for a verbal debate. Or Im in over my head for knowledge of repairs and building
drurb said:
I will concede that the word 'must' was a poor choice however with the description provided i gave my opinion.
Myself being both a tactile learner and a dual-licensed tradesman i can tell you that the educational portion in your mentioned fields of electrician, plumber and auto repair do not reflect what happens in the real world. Many of my colleagues have expressed that the schooling portion of their apprenticeship was a waste of time. Some held it in value, but all agree that it was the hands on work where they learned the most
I WISH that Engineers would spend a minimum of 3 years working hands-on in their respective field on the shop floor. This does not happen and the waste I have seen over the years is astounding. Not to mention the attitude... But I digress..
My opinion was asked, and it was given. I forgot to take my telepathy pill this morning so i couldn't read his mind for his complete educational history.
These forums would not turn into binary internet arguments if people would not pick apart other's opinions.
Anyone considering pursuing a career or training in Luthiery should contemplate this post and have business plan like answers. I do not want to discourage anyone either but I was a professional furniture maker, went to school and worked for 12 yrs making very high end furniture. Making anything by hand or any job requiring specialized hand skills is a tough road to go financially and otherwise. Yes people do things because they love it but the romance can end when year after year you struggle to pay basic living expenses. That is where I ended up, lacking specific plans and goals and without business skills I packed my tools in a box and went another direction. Having a clear vision of how to make a living with luthier training/skills should be addressed from the beginning to avoid burn out
Matthew Tucker
Commercial User
- Aug 21, 2002
- 2,686
- 387
- Disclosures
- Owner: Bresque Basses, Sydney Basses and Cellos
You can say exactly the same about repairing. Anyone can repair a violin or a bass, heck get some PVA glue and some woodfiller, a few nails and presto what's hard about that?
And don't we see THAT, all the time in the repair shop??
What you meant to say, I'm sure, is that doing ANYTHING expertly well is an Art.
Sure, an expert repairer is an artist. Building an instrument well is not only an art too, there's a fair amount of science, and alchemy involved too. And intuition.
And mumbo-jumbo, as well. Just like in repair work
I'll agree that making and repairing are different skills, that cross-over. Neither is easy to do really well. Some people have one skill, some have both. And one feeds the other.
Respectfully agreed. Google the names of the people you are conversing with, and be glad you live in the age of electrons when you can converse with the heaviest hitters in the business without leaving your favorite chair.
I would agree with that.
My opening statement was simply meant to be along the lines of, if you build a violin / guitar / dbl bass / cello etc, your accountable only to yourself. Anyone can build anything and all stuff ups are then part of the instrument design. The internet is full of people that have made there own instruments, some good some bad, some just down right shocking.
If you repair an instrument your accountable to the customer. Thats it, end story, your repairs have to be excellent or you will quickly become un-employed
Like probably yourself, you have seen so many design flaws / poor workmanship / crap work being sold as a finished product. As a repairer our work is on complete display, nothing to hide, it has to blend in seamlessly with the existing product
I dont use the internet to supply me with answers, I dont use the internet to look up who I am talking to, I give open and honest advice IMO from 25 years of repairing and building, it is disrespectful when someone comes along and saids your talking Bull$%^&, irrestpective of what position they may hold within the bass industry. Would you not agree with this.
I didn't say you were talking BS and I didn't intend to be disrespectful. I don't have 25 years of experience doing anything of significant value and I'm not in the habit of pretending otherwise.
What I did intend to do was hip you to the fact that one of the most respected builders/repairmen on the East Coast of the US, maybe in the whole country, responded intelligently to your comment, and his feedback appears to have sailed cleanly over your head. That's all.
What I did intend to do was hip you to the fact that one of the most respected builders/repairmen on the East Coast of the US, maybe in the whole country, responded intelligently to your comment, and his feedback appears to have sailed cleanly over your head. That's all.
