Double Bass Luthier school vs. apprenticeship

[Matthew Tucker]

If you repair an instrument your accountable to the customer. Thats it, end story, your repairs have to be excellent or you will quickly become un-employed

No different to building whatsoever. You can do a crap repair just as easily as you can build a crap instrument. You are still accountable to the customer. If your build is crap you won't make a sale.

A glib "building is easy" slips off the keyboard easily too, but guaranteed to rub builders up the wrong way!

Peace. Love. Bunnies.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

As in, for a verbal debate. Or Im in over my head for knowledge of repairs and building

c) - All of the above.

You can't just waltz in here and slag one of the most respected bass makers/repairers/restorers in North America and come off well; its just not going to happen.

If you knew anything, anything at all about Arnold, you'd know he'd rather throw out that mis-carved top plate and start over rather than stain his reputation and legacy with sub-standard work. In the end, all we have is our reputation.

When your hand-made violins start to bring you the accolades (and the prices!) that Arnold gets, I'll maybe give your ideas some consideration.

 

[mirwa]

I didn't say you were talking BS and I didn't intend to be disrespectful.

No you didnt, and I was not offended by your post, I was offended by the person who you said i was talkin Bull%^&*,

What I did intend to do was hip you to the fact that one of the most respected builders/repairmen on the East Coast of the US, maybe in the whole country, responded intelligently to your comment, and his feedback appears to have sailed cleanly over your head. That's all.

Unfortunatley it was they that said I was

I do both, and this statement is a load of bull@%&$.

 

[mirwa]

c) - All of the above.

You can't just waltz in here and slag one of the most respected bass makers/repairers/restorers in North America and come off well; its just not going to happen.

So I know when not to offend for future reference, how did I offend this person

 

[Jake deVilliers]

These forums would not turn into binary internet arguments if people would not pick apart other's opinions.

These fora wouldn't turn into binary internet arguments if people didn't post fatuous statements such as:

"You are an instructional learner. Having a BA and being a teacher is what leads me to that conclusion. In order to grasp concepts you must read the instructions first and then complete the task (more or less)."

How long was the interview wherein you leapt to these conclusions? Really?

 

[seang15]

So I know when not to offend for future reference, how did I offend this person

You have 13 posts, friend. I have been on since 2008, and am still working up to the point, and level, of respectfully addressing these folks. These posts are on here forever. Once you start your business, if you get to that point, your customers will check forums like this, check your history.

History is forever, especially on the Internet.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

So I know when not to offend for future reference, how did I offend this person

For everybody's clarification, I was not offended. I expected blowback from my statement, which was intentionally harsh. When guys who post under a pseudonym make silly statements I think a harsh response is warranted. I stand by what I said, and I apologize to the O.P. for the thread hijack.

 

[Cody Sisk]

For everybody's clarification, I was not offended. I expected blowback from my statement, which was intentionally harsh. When guys who post under a pseudonym make silly statements I think a harsh response is warranted. I stand by what I said, and I apologize to the O.P. for the thread hijack.

I agree. It's simply amazing to me how someone can so quickly dismiss a skillset that you've spent decades honing. It's a level of ignorance and disprespect that only someone hiding behind said pseudonym is capable of. I doubt said person would walk into Arnold's shop and take this $#(^-slinging conversation to this level. Unfortunately this behavior is nothing new on Talkbass..

 

[danceswithbass]

Two more cents (you should have lots of them after this is over, hopefully enough to buy tools!)

I know ~10 people who have attended the CSVM, three have graduated. None have made a bass (that I know of...)

One maker (who graduated in the early 80's) has gone on to open his own shop, chased sales around the world and make a name for himself. He won't openly tell you he graduated from the school, he tells most people he got his training in Germany (where he worked on Strads etc.)

The other two make violins part-time, more as a hobby, and have day jobs.

Every one else has gone for a year or two and dropped out. One maker has pressed on to establish a name for himself (in Chicago at least) and sells his violins and does high end restoration.

Everyone else has gotten a job working for shops in Chicago doing setup and repair. The biggest reason overall people have told me why they didn't complete was something to the effect of:

They teach you how to make, but they don't teach you that once you graduate no one will want to buy your instruments. People go to school with the impression that they will graduate, start making instruments and be selling their instruments. It seems difficult for new makers to get established successfully as a known maker, especially competing with (Ever increasing in quality) Chinese instruments. These people figured out that whether they graduated or not, they would be doing setup & repair regardless for many years ahead.

One benefit of the CSVM is that they have a good reputation with Chicago shops for hiring grads/attendees for doing setup and basic repair work. Fred Thompson (who teaches most of the courses) offers a workshop where students learn to do repair by doing hands on repairs. Hands on experience is FANTASTIC.

I would highly recommend the Oberlin summer session; I've unfortunately never been but based on the high remarks from those who have it seems awesome.

I'm in much the same boat as you. I got my music ed degree and got into setup/repair. I've mostly learned from watching experienced repair people, asking lots of questions, and reading anything I can get my hands on. Good luck to you, PM me if you want to meet up sometime (I work and live in Chicago).

Edit: Generally, none of this is bass specific, except for the Oberlin thing.

 

[mmoehring]

Two more cents (you should have lots of them after this is over, hopefully enough to buy tools!)

I know ~10 people who have attended the CSVM, three have graduated. None have made a bass (that I know of...)

One maker (who graduated in the early 80's) has gone on to open his own shop, chased sales around the world and make a name for himself. He won't openly tell you he graduated from the school, he tells most people he got his training in Germany (where he worked on Strads etc.)

The other two make violins part-time, more as a hobby, and have day jobs.

Every one else has gone for a year or two and dropped out. One maker has pressed on to establish a name for himself (in Chicago at least) and sells his violins and does high end restoration.

Everyone else has gotten a job working for shops in Chicago doing setup and repair. The biggest reason overall people have told me why they didn't complete was something to the effect of:

They teach you how to make, but they don't teach you that once you graduate no one will want to buy your instruments. People go to school with the impression that they will graduate, start making instruments and be selling their instruments. It seems difficult for new makers to get established successfully as a known maker, especially competing with (Ever increasing in quality) Chinese instruments. These people figured out that whether they graduated or not, they would be doing setup & repair regardless for many years ahead.

One benefit of the CSVM is that they have a good reputation with Chicago shops for hiring grads/attendees for doing setup and basic repair work. Fred Thompson (who teaches most of the courses) offers a workshop where students learn to do repair by doing hands on repairs. Hands on experience is FANTASTIC.

I would highly recommend the Oberlin summer session; I've unfortunately never been but based on the high remarks from those who have it seems awesome.

I'm in much the same boat as you. I got my music ed degree and got into setup/repair. I've mostly learned from watching experienced repair people, asking lots of questions, and reading anything I can get my hands on. Good luck to you, PM me if you want to meet up sometime (I work and live in Chicago).

Thank you. This is the kind of thing I'm looking for. Pros and cons of the field. Pros and cons of schooling vs apprenticing. Thanks to those of you for helping.

 

[forester]

Forester, do you get to work on many basses ? Sounds as if you crank out a lot of rentals....

No i do not work on the basses...but i do all the test rides, i am the only upright player in the bunch.We have several hundred, most of which are the plys that we are all too famillar with.I prefer to stick with the better quality step-up violins/violas,the thought of polishing acres of plywood...well. I get enough bass work preserving my own relic.

side note...i have not had opportunity to rub elbows with the accomplished folk on this forum, but to my fortune, at the ISB in State College, i was loitering at the AES encampment and Arnold asked me to hold and A string away from the board while he cranked it in on some pricesless bass. Task done,I got the head nod...and a "good job".

 

[Don Higdon]

As in, for a verbal debate. Or Im in over my head for knowledge of repairs and building

For verbal debate, certainly; maybe both, I'll never know.
I own one of Arnold's best basses, I have had 4 (including his first ergonomic bass) to "play in" somewhat, and as a frequent visitor, I have observed the building of at at least 12, maybe 15. I know firsthand the exacting standards Arnold sets for himself, no matter how long it takes, in every bass he builds. So based on first hand experience,

Being a builder is different to a repairer, I think building them is easy, repairing is an art

is patently absurd; or as has been said, a load of bull@%&$.
While we're at it, Arnold has done repairs for many of the best players in the nation.