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"Made in _____" ???
- Thread starter Trayster2
- Start date
I think the same thing that happed to the golf maker 30 years ago is also happening to the instrument maker in the USA.
the only Golf clubs made in the USA now are Pings. only 30 years ago there was 5 top makers in the USA, (Wilson was the last to close it foundery). 4 could not longer aford to have there own steel works and furness so went to Japan and China and had the parts shipped to the USA and put together there.
If you look at making a bass then they use the same Machines to cut out the body and neck but where they save in on labour, the polishing and the setting up of the bass is so much cheeper, the living cost in China and Korea is a 1/4 of what it is in the Uk or USA so there has to be saving in getting a bass made in the far east compaired to the UK or USA,
to say that China or Korea do not have the ability to make top quality guitars is wrong, China has been making top quality instruments for 20 years and you only have to see there violin's and sax and brass instruments to know this.
I think some 20 years ago China and Korea made poorer Guitars but they have improved so much since them, the quality is now as good as anything you can make in the USA and that why Fender and Gibson have had some models made in China and Korea. its not a poorer made guitar only a cheeper produced one.
the only Golf clubs made in the USA now are Pings. only 30 years ago there was 5 top makers in the USA, (Wilson was the last to close it foundery). 4 could not longer aford to have there own steel works and furness so went to Japan and China and had the parts shipped to the USA and put together there.
If you look at making a bass then they use the same Machines to cut out the body and neck but where they save in on labour, the polishing and the setting up of the bass is so much cheeper, the living cost in China and Korea is a 1/4 of what it is in the Uk or USA so there has to be saving in getting a bass made in the far east compaired to the UK or USA,
to say that China or Korea do not have the ability to make top quality guitars is wrong, China has been making top quality instruments for 20 years and you only have to see there violin's and sax and brass instruments to know this.
I think some 20 years ago China and Korea made poorer Guitars but they have improved so much since them, the quality is now as good as anything you can make in the USA and that why Fender and Gibson have had some models made in China and Korea. its not a poorer made guitar only a cheeper produced one.
Good points Bill.
I often wonder how much of the opinions we hold is based on whether we like a company or not. Given the attitudes towards China and gear made there, my perception is that if one mentions Phil Jones bass amps, the quality, work conditions arguments rarely get raised. I don't know if that's a shared perspective.
I often wonder how much of the opinions we hold is based on whether we like a company or not. Given the attitudes towards China and gear made there, my perception is that if one mentions Phil Jones bass amps, the quality, work conditions arguments rarely get raised. I don't know if that's a shared perspective.
dude...think about what you just said in this quote.
1. There are exceptions
2. But these exceptions don't exist? (Do they do it, no. )
If there are exceptions then your statement of american being superior quality to the rest of the world is wrong. You back pedal and say that these exceptions are untrue. What are you trying to say?
Some examples of high quality non-american makers
Dingwal (Canada), Lado (Canada), Warwick (Germany). Framus (Germany), Vigier Guitars (France), etc.
I'd say that the quality improvements in China took place in the last 6-8 years. Regardless, the quality of Chinese guitars is nowhere near as good as what is made in the US. The hardware and electronics are cheaper, the wood is much lower quality, fit and finish is at a MUCH lower level, and you're much more likely to find manufacturing flaws in a Chinese instrument.
Could the Chinese make guitars on par with a US-made instruments? Sure. But then the Chinese would have to spend more time on materials and labor, and once that happens, the profit margin is lower. And when THAT happens, the advantage to overseas manufacturing begins to disappear.
The Chinese aren't making guitars because they have a passion for it. They're making it as a commodity to fit a strict price point. They don't care about anything more than getting product into the hands of some low budget yobbo who want a cheap bass he can leave in a rehearsal space.
Here is my prejudice, for those who think that is what this is all about, I worked for a company that had a product that everyone would know if I mentioned the name. At the time that we bought the company, the product was being built in the US and the quality was horrible to say the least, the manufacturing was outsourced. We moved manufacturing to China, partially to try and better control costs but mainly to improve the quality and there was no manufacturer in the US who could do this on the scale needed.
I have NO problem with Chinese product, but I do know better quality when I see it and American Fenders are of superior quality to the stuff from other countries. I will say it again, if you feel the need to rationalize your purchase of a cheaper product, go right ahead, but just saying it is better does not make it better...
I have NO problem with Chinese product, but I do know better quality when I see it and American Fenders are of superior quality to the stuff from other countries. I will say it again, if you feel the need to rationalize your purchase of a cheaper product, go right ahead, but just saying it is better does not make it better...
The Chinese aren't making guitars because they have a passion for it. They're making it as a commodity to fit a strict price point. They don't care about anything more than getting product into the hands of some low budget yobbo who want a cheap bass he can leave in a rehearsal space.[/QUOTE]
Not all or even most Chinese Basses end up in the hands of "low budget yobs!!!" I think most peole buy a Chinese bass because not because there Chinese but that they think its a nice made and nice sounding bass for the money. I think you are comparing top end erotic wood bass made in the USA with mass market basses made in China and Korea. its not like with like.
compair a Korea made Squire with a Mexican squire or a Chinese made squire, there closer.
there are many Cor-Tec made basses in the upper end market that are well made and well thought of for Quality.
Makers like Tokia that made a copy SG that many think is even better than the Gibson made one but its 1/3 cheeper.
if makers in China or Korea were asked by Fender or Gibson to make a quality top range model then I feel they could do it!
if you also look at the number of guitars make in in the world in the last few years almost 68% were made by the Cor-Tek group. 68%!!!! that is a huge amount of guitars being made but most have "Squire, Epiphone, Hofner, Gresch. Yamaha etc so you don't know that Cor-Tek made them, or just where in the far east they were made and by whom. but there are still many many good guitars coming from the far east under brands you would never think of as being made in Korea. often the only way to find out if its made by Cor-Tek is to check the pots to see if its Cor-Tec pots. Fender even sell Cor-Tek pots that come in Fender packing.
Not all or even most Chinese Basses end up in the hands of "low budget yobs!!!" I think most peole buy a Chinese bass because not because there Chinese but that they think its a nice made and nice sounding bass for the money. I think you are comparing top end erotic wood bass made in the USA with mass market basses made in China and Korea. its not like with like.
compair a Korea made Squire with a Mexican squire or a Chinese made squire, there closer.
there are many Cor-Tec made basses in the upper end market that are well made and well thought of for Quality.
Makers like Tokia that made a copy SG that many think is even better than the Gibson made one but its 1/3 cheeper.
if makers in China or Korea were asked by Fender or Gibson to make a quality top range model then I feel they could do it!
if you also look at the number of guitars make in in the world in the last few years almost 68% were made by the Cor-Tek group. 68%!!!! that is a huge amount of guitars being made but most have "Squire, Epiphone, Hofner, Gresch. Yamaha etc so you don't know that Cor-Tek made them, or just where in the far east they were made and by whom. but there are still many many good guitars coming from the far east under brands you would never think of as being made in Korea. often the only way to find out if its made by Cor-Tek is to check the pots to see if its Cor-Tec pots. Fender even sell Cor-Tek pots that come in Fender packing.
Sorry, but you saying that doesn't make it true - by all means, show me basses made in China that compare favorably against US made Fenders, Spectors, Hamers, etc... and that's not even bringing in Lakland, Sadowsky, G&L...
I get that the quality has improved greatly, and &at their price point* they are killer - but quit trying to put lipstick on a pig...
- georgestrings
bigsnaketex said:
I can't speak on actual musical instrument factory wages in China however...
Chinese garment workers make Approx. $1.55 per hour in China.
My Chinese national friend Laura came back from an extended visit recently and said the latest trend in Chinese manufacturing is building factories out of bamboo.
I replied "they will collapse in time and some of the workers will die and many many more will be maimed!".
Laura said "I know but the workers are expendable compared to market share which is not expendable!"
This is what happens when you let a one party communist totalitarian system embrace capitalist profit grab with no regard for human rights.
That being said, I am a
Hypocrite- I own a lovely SX 5 string and won't sell it- it's awesome.
I'm trying to not purchase any more Asian sourced basses. I have a trade deal pending for a Washburn with an XB925 bantam USA. Body but I'm sure the neck is Asian- so that gets me halfway closer (the ATK I'm trading is 100% Indonesian).
I know more about guitars made in Korea than in China and I would say the Gresch made in Korea are of very high quality, the Yamaha guitars made there are also of high quality as are the Hofner. Cor-tec do make some top end guitars and are quality.
compair them with a same priced Usa made guitar and I would say theres little between them,
If your compairing a $2500 USA bass with a $500 Korea made bass then your not compairing the same.
its like compairing a $800 Fender with a $2500 fender,
would a $2000 made Korea made bass stand up against a $2000 made usa one than i think yes it would.
i think many playes would not be alble to tell what was a koreian made bass and this has been proved by the sheer number of basses made by Cor-Tek under well known american makers.
Fender, Gibson, Gresch, Yamaha, Hofner had models made in Korea, not only because it was cheeper but because the quality of manufacture could be maintained.
I have three basses that were made in Korea. Epiphone, Yamaha. and a LE. MARQUIS NY viola bass, there was nothing telling me that these basses were made by Cor-Tec, i had to try and trace them, even the Yamaha serial number checker tells me nothing, but the Qnn on the serial number is a Cor-tek number.
Cor-Tek made a lot of G&L basses and some Lakland basses too.
Cort’s main production focus is not on Cort-brand guitars, but rather on contract work for numerous other companies. Generally, large companies contract Cort to build lower-priced guitars that have that company’s brand on them. Ibanez, Parkwood, Squier, G&L Tribute series line of guitars are among the most well-known brands that Cort produces. In recent years, small companies known for extremely high quality (and high-priced) guitars have begun contracting Cort to produce budget line models
All that still doesn't make a case for your statement of:
"the quality is now as good as anything you can make in the USA and that why Fender and Gibson have had some models made in China and Korea."
Sorry, it's still not any more true than when you said it the first time...
- georgestrings
the quality is now as good as anything you can make in the USA "for a similarly price!!!!"
Its a bit like when Fender first started making strats in Japan, at first they were not as good as the USA made one but there came a point where the MIJ made Strats were said to be better than the USA made strats.
there are more and more makers getting Guitars made in Korea under there brand, a lot of the time you don't where or by whom its made, there are a lot of people with really good basses that do not know there made by Cor-Tek. and if it plays well and put a smile on you face, then that what matters.
where its made in not as importand to how it sounds and feels.
Fender do make really good guitars and most are really well made but even in the USA you get some badly finished ones in the shops. even Rickenbacker had problems with the finish cracking. so not all USA made guitars are the best in the world. Warwick make really top quality basses but not all of them are made in Germany, some are made in Korea but there still of a high quality.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this.
Time for blind tests, then. Let's get some American basses, some mexican and some asian. Blindfolds on & just f'n play the %$&*($ outta them. I bet you'd be hard pressed to determine whether some of them are American or not. Sure, there will be some that are easily identifiable by certain aspects that only appear on USA basses, but some not so much. Blindly test a G&L Tribute against a USA G&L. Same hardware, same pickups, just different manufacturing origin. Have fun.
The problem with an argument like this is that neither of your points can be confirmed without rigorous testing by non-biased parties.
Personally, I think high levels of quality assurance in the musical instrument world is a near impossibility, especially in the assembly line world. Read through the threads here, you will find the same praise and the same criticisms for guitars and basses, no matter how much they cost or where they are made. It may seem hard to swallow, but some of the high-price-point American made products suffer from the same maladies as their foreign-made counterparts. Owning over 120 guitars and basses, I can verify the reports here and elsewhere on the internet by looking at my own collection.
Any discussion of musical instrument quality must take into consideration that the consitency of the components will naturally vary. There is no way to ensure that every piece of wood has the same consistency and stability, and that even goes for hardware, even the way pickups are constructed and wound.
It's a giant crap shoot, no matter where it's made. CNC and more accurate fool-proof construction methods have made it easier for humans to make guitars and basses the same way each time, but humans still can't control all the variables.
Case in point: I just bought a 2012 Gibson Les Paul Junior Special. Just to get the weight I like, and one that was well-constructed, I had to audition SIX of the same guitar. Not only were the weights all over the map (anywhere from 6 pounds to 8.5 pounds), but the construction was vastly different on each one. Some had quirks in the electronics, some had strings that were not centered on the fretboard (nothing can be done there as these are set neck guitars). So between the construction quirks and the weights, all six were very different guitars. Yes, I did pick the cherry, only one was hefty and well-constructed. One of six.
That's a USA-made instrument company.
Any discussion of musical instrument quality must take into consideration that the consitency of the components will naturally vary. There is no way to ensure that every piece of wood has the same consistency and stability, and that even goes for hardware, even the way pickups are constructed and wound.
It's a giant crap shoot, no matter where it's made. CNC and more accurate fool-proof construction methods have made it easier for humans to make guitars and basses the same way each time, but humans still can't control all the variables.
Case in point: I just bought a 2012 Gibson Les Paul Junior Special. Just to get the weight I like, and one that was well-constructed, I had to audition SIX of the same guitar. Not only were the weights all over the map (anywhere from 6 pounds to 8.5 pounds), but the construction was vastly different on each one. Some had quirks in the electronics, some had strings that were not centered on the fretboard (nothing can be done there as these are set neck guitars). So between the construction quirks and the weights, all six were very different guitars. Yes, I did pick the cherry, only one was hefty and well-constructed. One of six.
That's a USA-made instrument company.
Had you made the "for a similar price" qualifier the first time, I'd have no disagreement with you - but that's not what you said...
- georgestrings
Time for blind tests, then. Let's get some American basses, some mexican and some asian. Blindfolds on & just f'n play the %$&*($ outta them. I bet you'd be hard pressed to determine whether some of them are American or not. Sure, there will be some that are easily identifiable by certain aspects that only appear on USA basses, but some not so much. Blindly test a G&L Tribute against a USA G&L. Same hardware, same pickups, just different manufacturing origin. Have fun.
The problem with an argument like this is that neither of your points can be confirmed without rigorous testing by non-biased parties.
Whatever you say - I'm basing my statements on over 30 years of playing, having owned atleast 50-100 Fender/Squier basses, including MIA, MIJ, MIM, as well as Korea, Indonesia, and China - and having played hundreds more... In fact, I gigged Squier basses for over 10 years straight, and they made me plenty of money - but repeating the lie that they're as good of quality as the MIA Fenders does not make it any more true...
This tired argument comes up all to often, to be honest - in the end, play what you want/like/can afford - and don't worry about what other's play...
- georgestrings
