Made In USA

[bassplayer8953]

No. And you're missing the point. I'm saying that outsourcing, if done correctly, doesn't hurt our economy.

You said no such thing. This is a quote...cut 'n paste, actually, of your post:

Join Date: Oct 2011

Location: West TN

Myth of the Made In USA Label | Business | 8Asians.com

Even if it's "Made in USA", the money still isn't going to into the US economy.
__________________

...which is blatently false, with the 1 exception the author, whose position is to validate outsourcing, makes as her point.

I'm also agreeing with the author of the article when she says that the issue has become "infuriatingly overrated".

That's your opinion...of her opinion. No basis in fact, other than that 1 supposedly "MIA" company operates outside the law.

There's a hell of a lot more broken with our economy than outsourcing and "buying American" will do little to fix it. Of course people have a habit of getting into this overly nationalistic, prideful phase where they won't listen to reality, and this being America, a consumerist society, everyone thinks they can solve the problem by throwing money at it.

The biggest issue facing the US today is jobs...well paying jobs, not minimum wage retail & service jobs. Outsourcing...and the unwillingness of those who make and enforce laws...to control it...are the source of the problem.

Another issue I take with "buying American", and I believe I said it before, is that there are many products that simply are not made at all in America or by an American company. I build plastic model kits. I can only think of very few (one off the top of my head) American companies that make model kits, and they don't have anything I want. So I have no choice but to buy the Japanese, Chinese, German, and Korean kits.....which typically end up being of better quality than the "MiA" ones anyway. A few years back I used to be into airsoft (paintball type game). American airsoft companies did not exist. Period. Everything was Japanese or Chinese.

Very few things these days (at least those that I want/need) are American, and I find the task of "buying American" futile, unless I'm looking to buy a rifle or something.

What you are describing here is the result of outsourcing run amuck. We all have foreign made "stuff" littering our homes, hobby tables, and our landfills. The whole point being, how to turn things around and stop the flow of $$$ to other countries...money needed to stimulate our domestic economy...and divert those $$$...back to the US. Bass guitars & amps is 1 place where we still actually have a choice. And we all excercise our opinion and right to choose, every time we buy something.

 

[Gord_oh]

its a free market economy.

Ford- american company? made in mexico.
Hundai, Nissan, Toyota- made in america.

other countries are doing the same thing we are, outsourcing. to us!

 

[Foamy]

Went to Wal*Mart to buy a new Men's Grooming Kit. My 10-year-old Remington won't charge.
I see the Wahl, and it boasts Made in the U.S.A.!
Slam-dunk, right?
I get it out of the package and the fit and finish is horrible.
There's a big chome-looking piece on the front that sticks out over 1/16". So far, in fact, that it looks like it should be a lever - something you'd need to press to release the head.
But it's not.
And looking at it, the piece is molded so poorly that it would never fit flush with the trimmer body unless you trimmed it.
No way any QC person should pass that off as OK.
For a trimmer, I think this gap is an invitation to moisture.
So it's going back this morning. I doubt any of the others are made here.
I did like some American-made New Balance shoes I found a year ago or so.

 

[Pillgrimm13]

the only thing we can do to save american manufacturing is to raise our tarrifs from our 3 percent rate to chinas 25 percent rate, that will make pi=rices more competetive. we would see a raise in cost but it would open up the market for american domestic goods to compete and spur manufacturing in the country again which would alow us to get better paying jobs and be able to afford american goods. it wont happen though cuz we want our cheap products and politicians want there legal chinese bribes.

 

[hrodbert696]

Went to Wal*Mart to buy a new Men's Grooming Kit. My 10-year-old Remington won't charge.
I see the Wahl, and it boasts Made in the U.S.A.!
Slam-dunk, right?
I get it out of the package and the fit and finish is horrible.
There's a big chome-looking piece on the front that sticks out over 1/16". So far, in fact, that it looks like it should be a lever - something you'd need to press to release the head.
But it's not.
And looking at it, the piece is molded so poorly that it would never fit flush with the trimmer body unless you trimmed it.
No way any QC person should pass that off as OK.
For a trimmer, I think this gap is an invitation to moisture.
So it's going back this morning. I doubt any of the others are made here.
I did like some American-made New Balance shoes I found a year ago or so.

So wait a minute... poor quality control proves it wasn't really made in America?

Have you ever bought a car from Detroit?

There was a brief time when an American car maker - I think it was Ford - had a partnership with either Honda or Toyota. They were sending American factory workers to Japan to learn QC. In the American plants, the do-not-break ironclad rule was "DON'T STOP THE LINE," no matter how bad the problem. Lots of cars were rolling straight from the assembly line to the salvage yard, undrivable. Lots of others were sent on to dealerships even though they were lemons. It was the Japanese who taught the Americans to stop the line and fix a problem so that every car ran right. And, if I remember right, this system was soon abandoned and the Americans went back to their old ways, for all the wrong reasons.

If the American public warmed up to the idea of buying Hondas and Toyotas instead of Fords and Chryslers, it's not because they're disloyal or because the government didn't raise tariffs high enough or because Japanese factory workers are underpaid sweatshop workers. It's because the public is not so stupid as to keep buying expensive lemons when they can get good cars for less.

 

[Foamy]

So wait a minute... poor quality control proves it wasn't really made in America?

How in the bloody world did you get THAT from my post?

I ranted about an item MADE IN USA where the QC was non-existent.

Edit: I returned the first one, went to another retailer across town and bought ANOTHER one. I was hoping that I just got bum unit. Took it out of the store and opened it up - same problem. Just ill-fitting parts. I am disappointed in this. This is effort I went to to buy Made In U.S.A.. Cost me 2 gallons of diesel fuel when said and done too. Went to Best Buy and bought a Made in China Norelco. Ugh.

 

[6jase5]

the only thing we can do to save american manufacturing is to raise our tarrifs from our 3 percent rate to chinas 25 percent rate, that will make pi=rices more competetive. we would see a raise in cost but it would open up the market for american domestic goods to compete and spur manufacturing in the country again which would alow us to get better paying jobs and be able to afford american goods. it wont happen though cuz we want our cheap products and politicians want there legal chinese bribes.

I'm going to assume that you are not a licensed US Customs Broker familiar with harmonized tariffs. If so, I'm shocked. There is no generic 3% versus 25%. Not sure where you pulled those numbers, but I can assure you that they are wrong. The common button down oxford has about 27 different tariffs dependent on things as mundane as the threads on the pocket to the cuts in fabric on the side, and none of them is 3%. Grab the broker "bible" and you'll see.

I'm not going to get in to a war here, but for 17 years I've worked in distribution of Import, Export and Domestic products. There is a ton of misinformation in this post and it's a shame as it propagates ignorance to economics, but that's the internet for you. You can believe me or not, but outsourcing is NOT the enemy of good paying jobs. People should be looking at the expectation of wages compared to the global scale. College grads with no experience and a freshly dripping piece of MBA paper expecting 100K with nothing to offer. If you think that working on a car assembly line is a $40+ hour paying job, fine, I don't. I've been to plants all over the world watching workers with more pride, working smarter, quicker, safer, making that amount per day.

I love my country, but we have to get out of the mindset that we are entitled to high paying jobs. I'm sure that I'll get flamed for that but oh well. The world evolves and we have to evolve with it. Countries that are smart to find the trends ahead of them being trends will always win the business (India is a good example). Complaining about "what was" is a waste of time. We should worry more about illegal immigration and the bill we foot for that and the 100s of billions missing in healthcare versus where my shoes were made.

 

[hrodbert696]

How in the bloody world did you get THAT from my post?

I ranted about an item MADE IN USA where the QC was non-existent.

Oops, I misread the post. When you said "I doubt any of the others are made in the US," I subconsciously added an "either." It came across like you thought the Made-in-USA label was false advertising when you saw the bad QC. My bad, apologies.

 

[Foamy]

Oops, I misread the post. When you said "I doubt any of the others are made in the US," I subconsciously added an "either." It came across like you thought the Made-in-USA label was false advertising when you saw the bad QC. My bad, apologies.

Ah, no worries, of course. Sometimes explaining these things (like my story about the trimmer) is harder than its worth to tell the story.

Cheers!

 

[Pilgrim]

Everybody wants a simple solution.

There are no simple solutions.

 

[wideyes]

Lots of yapping here.

Some simple observations:

The abundant wealth of the U.S.A. is founded upon the abundant natural resources of the U.S.A. Though these resources have never been distributed equitably, there still has always been more than enough to go around. Look at the per capita figures - it's a large, rich country with a small population.

The U.S.A. rose to be the predominant world power it is today through shrewd war profiteering from the two world wars. And why did it profit? It manufactured and sold (exported) a great many things, and it wasn't financing its own war (much). It also lent tremendous amounts of money, which it collected on later. Now who does that sound like in the modern era?

The assertion that a service-based economy is a stable and viable replacement for the model that made the U.S.A. profitable in the first place is ludicrous. Look at the numbers from 1950 through now and see how the shift from domestic manufacturing to outsourcing has impacted the average economic power of Americans. Look at those numbers.

 

[bassguppy]

I have a habit now of buying USA made furniture whenever possible. The furniture industry has been decimated by outsourcing. Furniture stores like Ashley, Leavitt's, & Raymour & Flanigans have huge sales on furniture where you can get a chair, loveseat & sofa for $1,199 and although the furniture may look great on the outside and initally feel pretty good when sitting on it the inside of that piece of furniture determines whether it last more than 5-7 years (if that). In other words the sofa you pay $600 for that's made in Asia probably costs $300 for the retailer and around $200 to build for the manufacturer. Corners must be cut to maintain that low cost.

I purchased a Made in the USA sofa (Sherrill) that cost $1,258.85 total and I know that piece of furniture will last until I'm dead. To some degree the sofa is customized where I chose the cushion firmness, fabric, legs, and other options.

It makes a lot of sense to me to buy USA on some items and it's not difficult at all to find USA manufacturers online with their local distributors listed.

 

[wideyes]

If you've ever thought, "I'd love to buy that MIA bass but I can't afford it," ask yourself why you couldn't afford it. If you've ever bought a MIA bass and thought, "The quality on this instrument isn't what I'd expect," ask yourself why it isn't. Why is the vintage market for American Fenders so vibrant? Is it just because they're old?

 

[Batmensch]

Maybe I'm dense, wideyes, but I'm not getting your point.

 

[wideyes]

Maybe I'm dense, wideyes, but I'm not getting your point.

I'll assume that's an earnest question. I'm talking about buying power. You can bang on about GDP and profit and market share, etc., but IMO the real measure of economic success is the buying power of the average Joe. Numbers show that, in the U.S.A., the rich are getting richer while everyone else is getting poorer. The average Joe is less able to afford things now, so the average Joe is becoming more reliant on cheap (foreign-made) goods, so the competition of foreign goods has put a lot of domestic makers out of business. This has resulted in a dropoff of domestic manufacturing, resulting in a general decline in the availability and quality of American-made goods (and loss of jobs, equaling loss of buying power, etc. etc.).

If Americans prioritized A). giving jobs to Americans and B). buying the products of said American jobs, Americans would generally enjoy a higher standard of living and better-made products (like they did 50 years ago).

 

[jimmy rocket]

So wait a minute... poor quality control proves it wasn't really made in America?

Have you ever bought a car from Detroit?

There was a brief time when an American car maker - I think it was Ford - had a partnership with either Honda or Toyota. They were sending American factory workers to Japan to learn QC. In the American plants, the do-not-break ironclad rule was "DON'T STOP THE LINE," no matter how bad the problem. Lots of cars were rolling straight from the assembly line to the salvage yard, undrivable. Lots of others were sent on to dealerships even though they were lemons. It was the Japanese who taught the Americans to stop the line and fix a problem so that every car ran right. And, if I remember right, this system was soon abandoned and the Americans went back to their old ways, for all the wrong reasons.

If the American public warmed up to the idea of buying Hondas and Toyotas instead of Fords and Chryslers, it's not because they're disloyal or because the government didn't raise tariffs high enough or because Japanese factory workers are underpaid sweatshop workers. It's because the public is not so stupid as to keep buying expensive lemons when they can get good cars for less.

That may be more than one company, but I know Chrysler did that because I know one of the execs that thought that was a good idea and was sad to see it ignored. It was a big part of their joint business with Mitsubishi though.

 

[6jase5]

I love my country and will always have US pride, much the same that I would expect someone from anywhere else to have the same respect for their country.

LEAN production methods came from Toyota (Toyota Production House). All the Waste Elimination methodology that the US had to adopt to maintain relevance in the manufacturing world came from overseas, not the other way around. We have this cocky "we are the best manufacturing country" mentality which is just not true. Waste Elimination isn't just limited to manufacturing, but also adapted to many service industries as well. We've sadly been way behind the times compared to most other developed countries and will always be "catching up" to Japan as an example.

I had to remind my "buy MIA" neighbor that buying a used Harley from a guy on Cycle Trader did nothing for the US economy which he was trying to brag about Saturday night, but that going to the local Honda dealer and buying a new one for the same price would have done so much more. (I really don't want to hear about the intrinsic value of advertising a US brand through ownership, I'm talking direct impact). He still doesn't get the point. That said, I do have a Harley, and I bought mine new.

 

[Silaxian]

Lots of yapping here.

Some simple observations:

The abundant wealth of the U.S.A. is founded upon the abundant natural resources of the U.S.A. Though these resources have never been distributed equitably, there still has always been more than enough to go around. Look at the per capita figures - it's a large, rich country with a small population.

The U.S.A. rose to be the predominant world power it is today through shrewd war profiteering from the two world wars. And why did it profit? It manufactured and sold (exported) a great many things, and it wasn't financing its own war (much). It also lent tremendous amounts of money, which it collected on later. Now who does that sound like in the modern era?

The assertion that a service-based economy is a stable and viable replacement for the model that made the U.S.A. profitable in the first place is ludicrous. Look at the numbers from 1950 through now and see how the shift from domestic manufacturing to outsourcing has impacted the average economic power of Americans. Look at those numbers.

OK ... let's do look at the numbers.

For the year 2008, the Federal Reserve estimates that the value of U.S. manufacturing output was about $3.7 trillion. If the U.S. manufacturing sector were a separate economy, with its own GDP, it would be tied with Germany as the world's fourth richest economy. The 2008 GDPs were: U.S. ($14.2 trillion), Japan ($4.9 trillion), China ($4.3 trillion), U.S. manufacturing ($3.7 trillion), Germany ($3.7 trillion), France ($2.9 trillion) and the United Kingdom ($2.7 trillion).(Source: Manufacturing's Death Greatly Exaggerated Dr. Mark Perry, 2009).

U.S. manufacturing employment peaked at 19.5 million jobs in 1979. Since then the manufacturing workforce has shrunk by 40 percent and will continue to shrink ... because of automation. Because of automation, the U.S. worker is now three times as productive as in 1980 and twice as productive as in 2000. It's productivity gains, rather than outsourcing and imports, that explains most of our manufacturing job loss.

In 1790, farmers were 90 percent of the U.S. labor force. By 1900, only about 41 percent of our labor force was employed in agriculture. By 2008, less than 3 percent of Americans were employed in agriculture. Would you have made the argument then that without agriculture the economy would weaken to the point of collapse?

 

[wideyes]

It's a fair point you're making, Silaxian, and I see where you're going with it.

Unfortunately, automation doesn't explain why Japanese auto manufacturing put Detroit out of business. It doesn't explain why tech support comes from India. It doesn't explain why Walmart pays and treats its employees horribly while selling Americans low-quality products manufactured overseas.

Are you making the argument that overseas manufacturing creates more American jobs than American manufacturing? Automation or not, why are American manufacturing jobs being moved overseas? Why are Chinese robots making toys instead of American robots (operated, manufactured and assembled by Americans, with jobs, in America)? It's simple: it's cheaper to import crap Asian stuff than it is to make it here. Cheaper for everyone involved. The end result of this trend is crappier products, higher profit margins for American retail companies and lower buying power for the average American.

Perhaps the average U.S. citizen doesn't realize that they're outsourcing themselves every time they buy Asian stuff at Walmart. The consumer decides what sinks and floats in the marketplace, and I wish the average American consumer would make choices that had their longterm interests at heart.

If you argue that our current model is a natural outcome of the direction global free market capitalism has taken us, you're right. So where does that take Americans, then? How have we filled the economic vacuum left by automation and outsourcing? You can't make a living as a consumer, no matter how cheap things get.

Many of the arguments I've seen in this thread seem to be apologies for the current state of doing business in the U.S. which, from what I've gathered with a quick gander at the newspaper, doesn't seem to be working all that well. Talking heads yammer, but in the end we need to ask: what raises the standard of living for the average American? Having a job helps. There's no good argument I've heard yet for outsourcing.

I stand by the OP. Buy American if you live in America.

 

[ksandvik]

I'm always been wondering if automation made the farm workforce obsolete and now manufacturing, what will 250+ million people work with? I mean not everyone is a software engineer or doctor and I don't like the outcome (like in Texas) where job growth is happening in the minimum wage service sector...

Hence I think it would be nice to trap up the focus on high end manufacturing again. Not that cheap stuff that Asian companies with its supercheap workforce has a handle on, plus it's a minimum wage work sector. Rather next gen energy technology, auto motor and transportation industry with energy-efficient vehicles, green tech, telecommunications. Hepp, even bass guitars and bass amps.