• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Made In USA

I don't necessarily think you have have a firm "Buy American" stance. I think you just need to try to buy products that are produced in places where workers are paid a good wage and have a high standard of living.

It all works out in the end. If an American buys a product made in the UK or Canada, the Brit and Canadian will buy something American.

The real problem is that good paying jobs are being lost to countries that pay 'peanuts' to workers with little or no rights. And in return they don't buy our products.

We buy their cheap junk but they aren't buying ours!:)
 
I like Chicago Beef dogs.

There simply are no other hot dogs other than all beef Chicago dogs -- the gold standard: Vienna Beef (natural casing), or one of the Kosher brands. All other "hot dogs" are an abomination and should never be eaten nor even called hot dogs.

And unlike everything else on Talkbass, this is not open to debate.
 
It's a fair point you're making, Silaxian, and I see where you're going with it.

Unfortunately, automation doesn't explain why Japanese auto manufacturing put Detroit out of business. It doesn't explain why tech support comes from India. It doesn't explain why Walmart pays and treats its employees horribly while selling Americans low-quality products manufactured overseas.

Are you making the argument that overseas manufacturing creates more American jobs than American manufacturing? Automation or not, why are American manufacturing jobs being moved overseas? Why are Chinese robots making toys instead of American robots (operated, manufactured and assembled by Americans, with jobs, in America)? It's simple: it's cheaper to import crap Asian stuff than it is to make it here. Cheaper for everyone involved. The end result of this trend is crappier products, higher profit margins for American retail companies and lower buying power for the average American.

Perhaps the average U.S. citizen doesn't realize that they're outsourcing themselves every time they buy Asian stuff at Walmart. The consumer decides what sinks and floats in the marketplace, and I wish the average American consumer would make choices that had their longterm interests at heart.

If you argue that our current model is a natural outcome of the direction global free market capitalism has taken us, you're right. So where does that take Americans, then? How have we filled the economic vacuum left by automation and outsourcing? You can't make a living as a consumer, no matter how cheap things get.

Many of the arguments I've seen in this thread seem to be apologies for the current state of doing business in the U.S. which, from what I've gathered with a quick gander at the newspaper, doesn't seem to be working all that well. Talking heads yammer, but in the end we need to ask: what raises the standard of living for the average American? Having a job helps. There's no good argument I've heard yet for outsourcing.

I stand by the OP. Buy American if you live in America.

The Japanese did not put Detroit out of business, the inability to compete did and that encompasses many factors not the least of which is the demand placed on automakers like GM by the UAW. Try starting off your fiscal year several billion dollars in the red as a result of union demands and see how well you fare. What does tech support have to do with any of this? I was addressing manufacturing and manufacturing specifically, do you now want to argue that we need call center jobs in the USA? What has that got to do with anything be made in the US? As for Walmart, if you do not like Walmart then shop elsewhere but you cannot dismiss the fact that the reason Walmart thrives is because so many consumers CHOOSE to shop there.

I am making the argument that there is going to be even more shrinkage in the manufacturing labour pool, due to automation. Please re read my post if you did not get this the first time. BTW, crap Asian stuff has ALWAYS been crap Asian stuff. I grew up in the late 60's and early 70's and believe me when I tell you that Asian factories have been selling cheap product for a long, long time. What do you suggest? That we pay more for American crap just because it is American? No thanks. That doesn't help anyone, much less the American worker.

Please explain to me why we should pay more for American made crap.
 
I own 8 MIA basses/guitars and 3 MIA amps.... And I'm not even American.:rolleyes:

Maybe I need to start buying F-Bass, Dingwall and Traynor to support my own economy!

In any case, I buy American as Gibson, Fender, Ernie Ball, Mesa and Rivera all make quality products. If MIA didn't equate to quality, I would likely buy elsewhere.
 
I don't necessarily think you have have a firm "Buy American" stance. I think you just need to try to buy products that are produced in places where workers are paid a good wage and have a high standard of living.

It all works out in the end. If an American buys a product made in the UK or Canada, the Brit and Canadian will buy something American.

The real problem is that good paying jobs are being lost to countries that pay 'peanuts' to workers with little or no rights. And in return they don't buy our products.

We buy their cheap junk but they aren't buying ours!:)

+11
 
Please explain to me why we should pay more for American made crap.

You should be able to spend your dollars purchasing whatever goods, wherever they come from, are available to you. The anti-outsourcing crowds are filled to the brim with economic nonsense and espousing essentially protectionist policies which inevitably lead to poorer conditions.

Division of labor is good, m'kay.
 
Root 5 said:
Well technically, Canadians are American. And yes, Mexicans...

I'm certainly not disagreeing with you, but I don't think that's what most people are talking about when they say "Buy American" or there wouldn't be so many of those MIM vs MIA threads on here. The protectionist sentiment seems to run against that NAFTA understanding of "American."
 
The problem with this argument is that people need to learn more about history and the development of the world.

America started out being like India, China, etc making stuff for cheap off the backs of american workers that were underpaid and put in dangerous work environments. Now America is screaming for the "Don't buy from foreigners because they treat their people like crap and pay crapy wages" This is a hypocritical argument because it is what America did 100-250 years ago to get to the point it is today (or was yesterday?). These nations only want what you have a descent standard of living and they have to start at the same point you did.

2nd. Global Economy. Learn it , live it, love it. Probably not going to change. Single countries don't matter. It's the global economy as a whole (or atleast chunks larger then single countries) EU, Arab League, OPEC, Nato, etc. America, China, Japan don't make that much of a difference anymore. Gotta get your heads out of this "America is the only thing that matters" It isn't. Get over it.

3rd. In regards to global economy. You may not be aware of this but many "foreign" products are made by a foreign company in North America. It works both ways. "TEMA is responsible for Toyota’s engineering design, development, R&D, and manufacturing activities in the U.S., Canada and Mexico.* TEMA operates 13 parts and vehicle manufacturing plants across North America." (Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America, Inc. (TEMA))

Yamaha also builds pianos in North America, but is a Japanese company. Factories in Thomaston, Georgia and South Haven, Michigan. So this "buying american" argument is null. It's not going to "save america" and niether is a republican president who thinks he has a better idea.

It's about buying the product that you can afford and that you want. Not where it comes from anyway. If where it comes from matters maybe all products should be labeled more general "Made on Earth"
 
The reason Walmart thrives is because so many consumers CHOOSE to shop there.

I am making the argument that there is going to be even more shrinkage in the manufacturing labour pool, due to automation. Please re read my post if you did not get this the first time. BTW, crap Asian stuff has ALWAYS been crap Asian stuff. I grew up in the late 60's and early 70's and believe me when I tell you that Asian factories have been selling cheap product for a long, long time. What do you suggest? That we pay more for American crap just because it is American? No thanks. That doesn't help anyone, much less the American worker.

Actually, I feel it's I who should be asking you if you actually read my post. You're arguing that automation is robbing Americans of jobs. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm simply wondering aloud why it is that automation in China is making our stuff, as opposed to automation in the U.S.

The free market rests on the notion of consumer choice. Obviously. Competition, supply and demand, blah blah blah. Let's not drag these simple terms out - this is several iterations earlier in the argument and we don't need to go there again.

So, we're looking at a few questions here. Why is American stuff crap? Why couldn't we compete? Why did foreign goods win out? The simple answer is that foreigners have a lower standard of living than Americans, meaning they don't need to be paid as much (not to mention being more lax on all kinds of regulations) meaning their products are ultimately cheaper. Cheaper is a strong competitive argument in any market, and so Americans buy foreign stuff instead of domestic stuff. And as domestic sales suffer, so do quality standards. All because Americans don't want to pay another American's higher wages! That's it - that's the central decision. "Do I want to pay an American a higher wage, or a foreigner a cheaper wage?" They seem to be forgetting that they themselves are Americans, wanting to be paid higher wages. Who will fund the standard of living Americans wish to maintain? Who's buying our products?

Someone mentioned unionisation. Why do people unionise? To attempt to secure bargaining power for a higher standard of living. Try telling a union member that they don't deserve a raise, extra vacation time or better healthcare. The money is there, so why don't they deserve it?

Capitalism centers on the idea of mutual self-interest. I'm arguing that it's not in the best interests of the average American to buy foreign goods. Please, if you're arguing against this point, provide some useful insight into why it's in the best interest of an American to buy foreign versus domestic. Saying "cuz it's cheaper!" or "American stuff is overpriced and it sucks!" or observing the simple reality of "the way people are doing business right now" doesn't cut it for me.

North America manufactures fantastic quality musical products that are, IMO, worth the extra expense. Of course you can choose what you buy. I think it would benefit the average consumer to consider where their money goes when they buy things, and how it's going to benefit them in the long run.
 
I am going to speak in generalities here but this thread hit a nerve and I feel compelled to reply. This may offend some people and I apologize in advance...

The US used to be the leader in manufacturing during the industrial revolution... that has gone to other countries due to (among other things) cost and quality issues. We seem to be repeating ourselves in a similarly important field for this generation: the high technology field.

I see the US high tech field turning itself into management of
people in other countries doing the "hands on" work. This is due to the they-can-do-the-work-much-cheaper-since-their-standard-of-living-and-benefits-coverage-is-lower syndrome.

My prediction is once the other countries that the US high tech field manages (India and China primarily these days) get the experience *we are training them with*, they will cut out the upper and middle managers and do *all* the work themselves. I feel this is partly the explanation for Toyota, Honda, etc dominating the automotive industry these days.

Large US corporations seem to be very short sighted - trying to increase the bottom line quarter to quarter. Possibly this is the influence of Wall Street wanting short term profits and CEOs staying in companies for a short time before they find a more lucrative position.

I am all for competition in business, but as a Nation we are helping the national competition by training other countries in *our* Universities and *our* companies. How can we compete in the long run? I am not sure we can unless government intervenes with a long-term strategy before it is too late. As the government is influenced by said companies via campaign contributions and lobbyists (I am surprised this is still legal as it smacks of bribery), I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Who is to blame? Well it is complicated but I think everyone from consumers (myself included) to the government and the corporations themselves.

For the record, I drive a Toyota and a Honda and love the vehicles. I used to drive a US car but it had many more issues than both of my Japanese cars combined. As a consumer, I want the best product regardless of cost (within reason). If that is a US made product I am all for it. All of my basses are made in the US as they beat out the competition when I bought them.

One of the most intriguing concepts I've read in this thread is that the global government is emerging. If the US government wants to survive (via taxes which fund it for the most part), it will protect itself. However, if foreign lobbyists are funding our politicians, perhaps our government is morphing into the global government after all.
 
I am going to speak in generalities here but this thread hit a nerve and I feel compelled to reply. This may offend some people and I apologize in advance...

The US used to be the leader in manufacturing during the industrial revolution... that has gone to other countries due to (among other things) cost and quality issues. We seem to be repeating ourselves in a similarly important field for this generation: the high technology field.

I see the US high tech field turning itself into management of
people in other countries doing the "hands on" work. This is due to the they-can-do-the-work-much-cheaper-since-their-standard-of-living-and-benefits-coverage-is-lower syndrome.

My prediction is once the other countries that the US high tech field manages (India and China primarily these days) get the experience *we are training them with*, they will cut out the upper and middle managers and do *all* the work themselves. I feel this is partly the explanation for Toyota, Honda, etc dominating the automotive industry these days.

Large US corporations seem to be very short sighted - trying to increase the bottom line quarter to quarter. Possibly this is the influence of Wall Street wanting short term profits and CEOs staying in companies for a short time before they find a more lucrative position.

I am all for competition in business, but as a Nation we are helping the national competition by training other countries in *our* Universities and *our* companies. How can we compete in the long run? I am not sure we can unless government intervenes with a long-term strategy before it is too late. As the government is influenced by said companies via campaign contributions and lobbyists (I am surprised this is still legal as it smacks of bribery), I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Who is to blame? Well it is complicated but I think everyone from consumers (myself included) to the government and the corporations themselves.

For the record, I drive a Toyota and a Honda and love the vehicles. I used to drive a US car but it had many more issues than both of my Japanese cars combined. As a consumer, I want the best product regardless of cost (within reason). If that is a US made product I am all for it. All of my basses are made in the US as they beat out the competition when I bought them.

One of the most intriguing concepts I've read in this thread is that the global government is emerging. If the US government wants to survive (via taxes which fund it for the most part), it will protect itself. However, if foreign lobbyists are funding our politicians, perhaps our government is morphing into the global government after all.

+1. Well said. Your observations and predictions are spot on.