Magnets & Copper Wire: A Pickup Building Thread

[dwizum]

My take on that style of pickup is that it's about design efficiency, in the sense that you use the least amount of wire per unit of "exposure" to the magnetic field. This aligns with feedback where people seem to perceive it as a fairly un-colored pickup.

Something like a Jazz pickup has a lot of wire spent getting from place to place in the coil. Hence you end up with more resistance and more capacitance for a given output. And that adds some flavor to the pickup. If you want to design a pickup without that flavor, you'll want to minimize the amount of wire used in that manner, and winding a coil directly on a pole piece is pretty much by definition the least-possible amount of wire for a given number of turns.

 

[RichterScale]

Essentially, if you are doing a flat 4 string (no radius), it won't make a difference as far as final sound, as much as all the other factors.

 

[RichterScale]

My take on that style of pickup is that it's about design efficiency, in the sense that you use the least amount of wire per unit of "exposure" to the magnetic field. This aligns with feedback where people seem to perceive it as a fairly un-colored pickup.

Something like a Jazz pickup has a lot of wire spent getting from place to place in the coil. Hence you end up with more resistance and more capacitance for a given output. And that adds some flavor to the pickup. If you want to design a pickup without that flavor, you'll want to minimize the amount of wire used in that manner, and winding a coil directly on a pole piece is pretty much by definition the least-possible amount of wire for a given number of turns.

So, this would be a good design to start with if you're going for that "clean, hi-fi" sound I see mentioned a lot(?)
A good starting point if you're feeding a complicated preamp like the Wal has?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

So, this would be a good design to start with if you're going for that "clean, hi-fi" sound I see mentioned a lot(?)
A good starting point if you're feeding a complicated preamp like the Wal has?

Except that with a multi-coil, physical space is the real problem. The individual pickups have to be small or narrow to fit in the string spacing. As you've seen on here, I'm working extensively with pushing the limits of the clean Hi-Fi sound. And I'm finding that a big factor is big magnets and tall skinny coils. It's real hard to squeeze big magnets into a multi-coil design.

 

[slowburnaz]

Except that with a multi-coil, physical space is the real problem. The individual pickups have to be small or narrow to fit in the string spacing. As you've seen on here, I'm working extensively with pushing the limits of the clean Hi-Fi sound. And I'm finding that a big factor is big magnets and tall skinny coils. It's real hard to squeeze big magnets into a multi-coil design.

Another route on that journey could be big wire and low turn count... Alembic style. But then you need a preamp or at least a boost for the signal. Or even a transformer to boost, like Lace does with their Alumitones, but those are a whole different animal.

 

[RichterScale]

Another route on that journey could be big wire and low turn count... Alembic style. But then you need a preamp or at least a boost for the signal. Or even a transformer to boost, like Lace does with their Alumitones, but those are a whole different animal.

What did the spacing on center of the poles end up being on the 8coil pups you made?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

My current Super Hot Hi-Fi pickups use 3/8" x 1" long A5 magnets, wound tightly with 8000 turns of #41 wire. Running all passive, big powerful super clear sound. Physically big and heavy, but exactly the sound I'm looking for to go with my Scroll Basses.

There are different ways to get to Hi-Fi; that's my formula.

 

[RichterScale]

The individual pickups have to be small or narrow to fit in the string spacing.

What's the closest spacing you've been able to achieve?

 

[slowburnaz]

What did the spacing on center of the poles end up being on the 8coil pups you made?

If you mean string-to-string, I made two different spacings... .73" between strings meant for bridge position, and .70" between strings meant for neck position. If you mean between the "columns" of coils, they're 1" apart center to center.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

What's the closest spacing you've been able to achieve?

Mine are designed for 3/4" (0.750") string spacing. The coils are in separate housings, which are 5/8" wide. Each coil has three 1/4" dia x 3/4" long A5 magnets.

 

[RichterScale]

If you mean string-to-string, I made two different spacings... .73" between strings meant for bridge position, and .70" between strings meant for neck position. If you mean between the "columns" of coils, they're 1" apart center to center.

Wait, I'm confused.
So the magnet poles are 1" apart on center, or you made 2 different pups with different magnet spacing?

 

[RichterScale]

Mine are designed for 3/4" (0.750") string spacing. The coils are in separate housings, which are 5/8" wide. Each coil has three 1/4" dia x 3/4" long A5 magnets.

And from what I'm hearing, it sounds like it would start getting more difficult, the tighter the spacing you shoot for? Or is it just a matter of making the bobbins taller for the same amount of wire in a skinnier space?
Is there a spacing at which the spacing is just too close and the whole design falls apart and you need to look to a different design? Like, would 16-17mm be a little too close?

 

[slowburnaz]

Wait, I'm confused.
So the magnet poles are 1" apart on center, or you made 2 different pups with different magnet spacing?

Correct on both counts, actually.

I make these pickups with two different string spacings... .73" for the bridge, and .70" for the neck. The 1" spacing is the distance between the poles on the axis parallel to the strings, and is the same for each.

 

[Freekmagnet]

It seems that if people are looking for a certain baseline for a sound, warm and wooly, or bright and punchy, or I've heard people say "hi-fi", etc, there seems to be a specific pup style that you would go with, to get your starting point for the sound you're chasing.

There’s a lot of different ways to achieve a “hi-if” sound. Pickup design isn’t always a quantitative science - you can build a hi-fi single coil or a hi-fi multi-coil. There’s about 20 other variables you can work with, and each play a certain role in determining how a pickup sounds. Materials, wire gauge, magnetic structure, coil geometry… the list goes on.

I'm intrigued by this design and wondering if there's things you can achieve with this design that you can't with other pups, or if it's just a different way to achieve basically the same result.

My vote goes to “different way to achieve the similar result.”

 

[RichterScale]

Correct on both counts, actually.

I make these pickups with two different string spacings... .73" for the bridge, and .70" for the neck. The 1" spacing is the distance between the poles on the axis parallel to the strings, and is the same for each.

Thanks. It clicked this time.
I'm more of a picture guy than a word guy.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

And from what I'm hearing, it sounds like it would start getting more difficult, the tighter the spacing you shoot for? Or is it just a matter of making the bobbins taller for the same amount of wire in a skinnier space?
Is there a spacing at which the spacing is just too close and the whole design falls apart and you need to look to a different design? Like, would 16-17mm be a little too close?

It's all tradeoffs. The smaller you have to make each pickup assembly, the more difficult it is to get the performance you want. There are different approaches to help make them more compact, they have tradeoffs.

 

[RichterScale]

Well,....I think it's a really cool lookin design. It would've been nice if you all said that yes, it's a super special design that makes your bass sound like bigfoot is playing it, while riding a unicorn, in a spaceship. And no other pickup sounds anything like it.
I'm trying to assign it a characteristic that aligns with how cool it looks.
You guys kinda ruined it with all your science crap.

 

[Freekmagnet]

Well,....I think it's a really cool lookin design. It would've been nice if you all said that yes, it's a super special design that makes your bass sound like bigfoot is playing it, while riding a unicorn, in a spaceship. And no other pickup sounds anything like it.
I'm trying to assign it a characteristic that aligns with how cool it looks.
You guys kinda ruined it with all your science crap.

haha Bruce and I talk about that all the time - of course pickups only sound as amazing as they look!

 

[RichterScale]

haha Bruce and I talk about that all the time - of course pickups only sound as amazing as they look!

I frikkin knew it. Pickups are all the same.
It's all suggestive psychology and marketing. Just like "tonewood".
"My pickup design is proprietary and gives the bass clear, chocolatey lows, with citrus mids and a hint of mint in the highs....can you hear it?"
I morally object to this.

 

[RichterScale]

Ok, all kidding aside, I had one more thing I wanted to pick your collective brains about and then I'll stop being a PITA with all the questions.
What would be the major difference(s) with building a pickup with just 4 individual coils, instead of 8?
Any affect on output? Could they be wired in a way that would still cancel noise and not affect output?
Or, would you have to have larger magnets and/or bigger coils to get a similar output as 8 coils?
This is the only pic I could find of one,