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Magnets & Copper Wire: A Pickup Building Thread
- Thread starter Freekmagnet
- Start date
HaHa...No, pickups aren't all the same. They detect the sound on the strings, manipulate the EQ curve (or not), add some fuzziness (or not), boost the signal level, and send it on down to the amp. How and how much they manipulate the sound will depend on the internal design of the pickup. The final sound at the amp will depend a lot on what bass/strings/pickup position/player technique the pickup is applied to. Whether the player likes the final sound at the amp depends on what they are comparing the sound to. They have a mental image of a sound they like, which they compare the new sound to. Is it getting closer to or farther from their perfect memory sound?
And there is a big psychology part too. Jeremy and I joke that "if a pickup looks like it will sound good, it will sound good." But it's really true. If a pickup visually looks cool, the player will almost always give it the benefit of the doubt, and think it sounds cool. Something would have to be really wrong with the pickup's output for the player to reverse their perceived image. In almost all cases, as long as a pickup is a little bit louder and clearer than the previous pickup, the player will conclude that it sounds "better".
That's the hard truth about the pickup business. The visual styling is 90% of the sale. Customers will assume what the sound is from the way it looks. And they want to buy it because it sure looks cool. And they believe that it will therefore sound cool too.
And there is a big psychology part too. Jeremy and I joke that "if a pickup looks like it will sound good, it will sound good." But it's really true. If a pickup visually looks cool, the player will almost always give it the benefit of the doubt, and think it sounds cool. Something would have to be really wrong with the pickup's output for the player to reverse their perceived image. In almost all cases, as long as a pickup is a little bit louder and clearer than the previous pickup, the player will conclude that it sounds "better".
That's the hard truth about the pickup business. The visual styling is 90% of the sale. Customers will assume what the sound is from the way it looks. And they want to buy it because it sure looks cool. And they believe that it will therefore sound cool too.
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@RichterScale - Haha nothing like a little science to ruin a party!
To be fair, that's not entirely true. A well-designed pickup sounds good. The definition of good is a broad and subjective topic. That's why we have different types of pickups. What sounds good to you might not sound good to someone else.
What is true is that one type of design, in this case multi-coils, is not inherently "better" than another design.
I'm not sure of your question, but if the 8 coils are arranged in two rows of 4, then the major difference would be that the aperture of the 8-coil pickup would be wider. Either one of these configurations will cancel noise - 8 coils does not cancel more noise than 2.
Larger magnets or bigger coils could increase the output, but that depends on what type of magnet you're using and the shape of the coil and the gauge of the wire. If the magnets are weaker, then the larger magnets won't make a difference. You can have super-strong neodymium magnets, and they can be tiny and have more output than a pickup with larger, less strong magnets.
Bigger coils, too, depend on a lot of factors. The only one constant in that formula is that the smaller coil will almost always be brighter sounding. I believe that's an issue of capacitance, but I'm not sure. But then again, if you're winding a pickup with really thick wire, it could be larger and brighter because there is less resistance.
I'll be honest - I'm not even sure what a "hi-fi" pickup sounds like. I gauge my pickup designs by asking myself, "If my bass is loaded with these, and I'm playing with a good drummer, how easy will it be for me to drive the rhythm section and get people to shake their collective booty on the dance floor?" Then, if I get tired of that pickup after a couple of gigs, it’s out and I’m on to the next design.
To be fair, that's not entirely true. A well-designed pickup sounds good. The definition of good is a broad and subjective topic. That's why we have different types of pickups. What sounds good to you might not sound good to someone else.
What is true is that one type of design, in this case multi-coils, is not inherently "better" than another design.
I'm not sure of your question, but if the 8 coils are arranged in two rows of 4, then the major difference would be that the aperture of the 8-coil pickup would be wider. Either one of these configurations will cancel noise - 8 coils does not cancel more noise than 2.
Larger magnets or bigger coils could increase the output, but that depends on what type of magnet you're using and the shape of the coil and the gauge of the wire. If the magnets are weaker, then the larger magnets won't make a difference. You can have super-strong neodymium magnets, and they can be tiny and have more output than a pickup with larger, less strong magnets.
Bigger coils, too, depend on a lot of factors. The only one constant in that formula is that the smaller coil will almost always be brighter sounding. I believe that's an issue of capacitance, but I'm not sure. But then again, if you're winding a pickup with really thick wire, it could be larger and brighter because there is less resistance.
Along those lines, how does one achieve the "hi-af" sound? Asking for a friend...
I'll be honest - I'm not even sure what a "hi-fi" pickup sounds like. I gauge my pickup designs by asking myself, "If my bass is loaded with these, and I'm playing with a good drummer, how easy will it be for me to drive the rhythm section and get people to shake their collective booty on the dance floor?" Then, if I get tired of that pickup after a couple of gigs, it’s out and I’m on to the next design.
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Maybe a better way to ask it is:
Is there any advantage to adding a second row of 4 coils?
Is there any advantage or gain in sound options or perhaps more options in how it can be wired?
I'm trying to determine if a single row of coils (one coil p/string and half the width/weight) is a good design.
Or, if it's preferred to go with 2 rows/8 coils with a design like that, for any particular reason(s).
I imagine with a row of 4 coils you could do something like a miniature P-bass style humbucker, with the E and D coils north-up and the A and G coils south-up, and wired appropriately.
It's hard to speak in terms of "advantages" since it really just depends on your goals. The second row would let you sense a wider portion of the string, so you'd get different harmonics content.
Also, as alluded to above, a single row of coils is limiting in terms of physical space - as you keep wrapping wire around the magnets, you will soon run out of room, since the wire from one coil will be right up against the wire from it's neighbor. If you want a really powerful "coil per string" pickup, adding a second row gives you twice the space, so you can fit twice the magnet and twice the wire.
The crux of the matter is that there are about a billion "good" pickup designs. It's pretty easy to make a "good" sounding pickup. It really boils down to: what specific type of sound are you interested in for a particular bass? The single row four coil pickup and the two row 8 coil pickup designs are both going to sound good unless you really mess them up. Think of the sound difference between a single coil Jazz type pickup versus a humbucker that's made from two Jazz-shaped coils.
slowburnaz
Commercial User
Here's a different kind of multicoil pickup... 
Three coils in this one. As it sits now, a switch allows for either an outer coil and the center coil, both outer coils, or just one outer coil. They're wound such that when 2 coils are selected, they're humbucking... narrow and wide aperture.
Three coils in this one. As it sits now, a switch allows for either an outer coil and the center coil, both outer coils, or just one outer coil. They're wound such that when 2 coils are selected, they're humbucking... narrow and wide aperture.
I see. When you’re talking 1 or 2 rows, it basically comes down to aperture. The aperture is width of your sensing area.
1 row = narrower aperture = more focused sound.
2 rows = wider aperture = bigger, less focused sound.
You could probably drop just one of those 4-coil pickups in the P position and rock out to your heart’s content. If it were my bass, I’d probably go with two sets of four, but set the pickups apart, wired in parallel like a Jazz Bass. If you’re looking to do more of a MusicMan vibe, you might be better off with a wider aperture pickup. In that case, I’d skip the two sets of four and maybe ask around about an 8-coil pickup.
If you’re looking to a faux Wal thing a go active with cool filters and stuff, I’d spend some time reading through this thread:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-passinwind-open-source-preamp.1259692/
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This kind of pickup has really nice, different sounds. One of my cf basses had 3-coil pickup. I liked it.Here's a different kind of multicoil pickup...
Three coils in this one. As it sits now, a switch allows for either an outer coil and the center coil, both outer coils, or just one outer coil. They're wound such that when 2 coils are selected, they're humbucking... narrow and wide aperture.
View attachment 4368865
Maihinnousu - Lataa - MPU - Dual sound ceramic MM
Here's a clip of four coil pickups. Mounted in Thumb positions.
Maihinnousu - Lataa - MPU - Headless Thumb
slowburnaz
Commercial User
I like it!
I just recorded a clip of the one that's in my bass (pickup is in the standard MM position): [This invalid link has been removed]
That clip goes single -> narrow aperture humbucker -> wide aperture humbucker -> wide aperture humbucker -> narrow aperture humbucker -> single.
It's pretty cool how much difference the aperture makes in the sound.
EDIT: I changed out the switch, and was able to do a sample of all three coils on at the same time:
BTW, mine uses mild steel blades with small neo magnets attached to the bottom of each:
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I started reading it last night, passed out, started reading again today. I'm on page 8 of 44!
I'm pretty sure you just wanted to get rid of me for a few days and catch a break.
Nice.
haha no, that wasn’t my intention!
From what I understand (correct me if I’m wrong) part of the Wal mystique is their variable resonance low-pass filter preamp. There’s a couple of commercial options out there, but low-pass filter preamps are fairly uncommon. @Passinwind is in the process of developing a DIY option.
To be completely honest, I don't really know what I want. Every time I think I know what I want or think I have a good enough grasp on how things work, I end up in a new direction, through a new door, wormhole, into a whole new room with all new sights, sounds smells and flavors and I get all jumbled up again.
I thought I wanted to build a diva-like fretted passive that was dumbed down to a single pup with a tone and vol pot.
So I ended up in this thread to see if I could figure out a good pup for a setup like that,.... now I'm in a build-your-own preamp thread. But I haven't made it to a pup decision yet.
I think the smart thing would be to gather more Intel before I decide what I want. Or maybe not. Maybe just pick a config for a bass, build it, if I don't like it, build another one. But I feel like I'm late to the game and want to figure it all out first and build the single perfect bass for me, so I can start noodling again before I go deaf and my hands completely stop working.
As you can see, my issues are probably better suited for a psychiatrist, than an electronics thread.
I thought I wanted to build a diva-like fretted passive that was dumbed down to a single pup with a tone and vol pot.
So I ended up in this thread to see if I could figure out a good pup for a setup like that,.... now I'm in a build-your-own preamp thread. But I haven't made it to a pup decision yet.
I think the smart thing would be to gather more Intel before I decide what I want. Or maybe not. Maybe just pick a config for a bass, build it, if I don't like it, build another one. But I feel like I'm late to the game and want to figure it all out first and build the single perfect bass for me, so I can start noodling again before I go deaf and my hands completely stop working.
As you can see, my issues are probably better suited for a psychiatrist, than an electronics thread.
The discussions above show what I'm always trying to point out: There is still a whole wide unexplored expanse of magnetic pickup designs for basses out there, waiting to be discovered and tested. The manufacturers and boutique pickup winders are mostly locked into polishing the same old designs. We crazy hobbyist pickup builders have an open field to experiment with anything we want! We don't listen to their stinkin' rules!
Along those lines, how does one achieve the "hi-af" sound? Asking for a friend...
I think perhaps you missed my little joke.
slowburnaz
Commercial User
Well, you came to the right place, at least. That type of behavior is actively encouraged on this thread. So far, the only flaw in your plan that I can see is that it seems like you’re planning to build one, and only one, bass!
