can someone help me out and explain those two for me.....and i dont mean chords i mean explain them to me in scale wise because marloweDK on youtube (dont know if anyone knows him just look him up on youtube im sure you have he's amazing) and he uses dominant 7 in a couple of his videos and i heard that to understand dominant 7 scales you have to understand maj7 scales.....so if someone can explain this to me id be very greatful....thanks!
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maj7 and dominant 7???
- Thread starter dan1215
- Start date
Hmm. I'm not too sure what he means that to understand dominant 7 chords you have to understand Maj7 chords.
In a diatonic sense the dominant will be the V7 chord resolving to the I. So if you are looking at C Major, you will find G7 to be the dominant. It will also be the tertian tetrad of the relative 5th mode of the major scale, or the Mixolydian. The degrees are {1,3,5,b7}. Maj7 chords will be the tertian tetrad of the diatonic I and IV of the relative major scale. This means they will be "attached" the the relative Ionian and Lydian, which are the 1st and 4th modes respectively, and have the degrees {1,3,5,7}.
By the way these chords can be used in a variety of different contexts, but this is the basic diatonic manifestation of them.
In a diatonic sense the dominant will be the V7 chord resolving to the I. So if you are looking at C Major, you will find G7 to be the dominant. It will also be the tertian tetrad of the relative 5th mode of the major scale, or the Mixolydian. The degrees are {1,3,5,b7}. Maj7 chords will be the tertian tetrad of the diatonic I and IV of the relative major scale. This means they will be "attached" the the relative Ionian and Lydian, which are the 1st and 4th modes respectively, and have the degrees {1,3,5,7}.
By the way these chords can be used in a variety of different contexts, but this is the basic diatonic manifestation of them.
When I talk about dominant 7 types of chords, i refer to 7, 9 or 13 chords - all with flat 7 and raised 3 rd. My point is that these chords are used in bluesy contexts, often in funk, blues, rock where you have tunes bulit on the chords itself not its function in a key (V).
The beauty of the blues context is also that you can play play minor thirds over a dominant 7 chord giving you more of the "wailing" blues sound.
So when i refer to dominant 7 chords in my bass impros, i mean that im using both minor and major pentatonic scales, blues, dorian and mixolydian scales over the same ole' i.e. G7. so the notes available to me (not counting chromatic notes) are 1 2 b3 3 4 b5 5 6 b7. I havent stated anywhere that to understand b7 you should understand Maj7, but i strongly endorse the thought
The beauty of the blues context is also that you can play play minor thirds over a dominant 7 chord giving you more of the "wailing" blues sound.
So when i refer to dominant 7 chords in my bass impros, i mean that im using both minor and major pentatonic scales, blues, dorian and mixolydian scales over the same ole' i.e. G7. so the notes available to me (not counting chromatic notes) are 1 2 b3 3 4 b5 5 6 b7. I havent stated anywhere that to understand b7 you should understand Maj7, but i strongly endorse the thought
I think he may mean that the Dominant 7 scale makes more sense if you know with the logic of the major (aka major 7) scale. Specifically, as mute deity outlined, that The dominant 7 scale is the major scale, just starting /ending on the V instead of the I...like playing a C maj scale from G to G(8ve).
Huh? Dominant 7 scale? I didn't outline any such thing. There is no Dominant 7 scale per se. A domiant 7 chord will be found attached diatonically to the relative mixolydian. This doesn't make it "the dominant 7 scale". There are any number of scales that have dominant 7 chords attached, diatonically and enharmonically. These include, but are not limited to hungarian major, lydian domiant, phrygian dominant, mixolydian b6 ..and so on. I have never heard of the Major scale refer to as the major 7 scale either.
By the way I think if you read post 3 you can see exactly what MarloweDk means "straight from the horses mouth".
Just guessing here, and I hope the OP will forgive me if I'm incorrect in my assumption, but I'm thinking he might need a more straightforward answer than those given.
Think about the scale of C major (no # or b). You know, doh - re - mi etc.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
The dominant is the name given to the 5th note of the scale (G in this case). Remember this bit, it comes in again later.
B is the "maj7" (seventh note of the major scale). Or, to put this more correctly, the interval between C and B in this scale is a major seventh interval, but don't worry too much about this terminology for now.
Also, it's worth knowing that the note Bb, not included in this particular scale, can be called the minor seventh (strictly speaking, this is the interval or gap between C and Bb). You probably already know that the minor versions of this scale would include Eb, so this note is the minor 3rd (or, to put it another way, the interval between C and Eb is a minor 3rd).
So, some of the related chords are named as follows.
Cmaj7 = C-E-G-B
Cmin7 = C-Eb-G-Bb (notice that the 3rd and the 7th are both minor)
C7 = C - E - G - Bb (major 3rd, but minor 7th; I put this one last because although it's a very common chord, learners often find the name confusing as it gives less clues about what notes are actually in it).
The "dominant 7" chord means the last of these sort of chords, but moved up so that it has the dominant as its root, which would be G7 in this example, G - B - D - F. Notice that in C, the dominant 7 chord of G7 can be called "diatonic" because it only includes notes from the C major scale. Not important right now, but once you know how to spell chords (work out the notes in them) then you can start trying to understand how they relate to each other a little better.
For each type of chord, try to learn how big the intervals are between each note as this will help you play the same types of chords in different keys. For example, C - E - G - B = Cmaj7. Move every note up a tone so that the intervals between the notes are the same, and you get D - F# - A - C# = Dmaj7.
Also, try to find some chord charts for songs you like and work through them, using this to give you ideas for notes to play around with in each chord. It helps to do this really slowly so that you can experiment more extensively and hear how the notes fit with the chords at different points.
If you want some scales to try, then try notes from the major scale over maj7 chords, pentatonic minor over min7 chords and the mixolydian mode (like a major scale, but with a flat 7) over plain old seventh chords (like G7). These are just starting ideas. But do remember that good bass lines don't usually work just by dropping different scales in each bar to match the chord at that point, they have to relate to each other as the tune progresses. And you don't have to play every note in a scale, leave some out here and there. Experiment, and have fun!
Again, sorry if this is more basic than you need, but some folks might find it useful. And sorry it's a long post, but there's lot of info crammed in here. Read it slowly, and you'll get it!
Think about the scale of C major (no # or b). You know, doh - re - mi etc.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
The dominant is the name given to the 5th note of the scale (G in this case). Remember this bit, it comes in again later.
B is the "maj7" (seventh note of the major scale). Or, to put this more correctly, the interval between C and B in this scale is a major seventh interval, but don't worry too much about this terminology for now.
Also, it's worth knowing that the note Bb, not included in this particular scale, can be called the minor seventh (strictly speaking, this is the interval or gap between C and Bb). You probably already know that the minor versions of this scale would include Eb, so this note is the minor 3rd (or, to put it another way, the interval between C and Eb is a minor 3rd).
So, some of the related chords are named as follows.
Cmaj7 = C-E-G-B
Cmin7 = C-Eb-G-Bb (notice that the 3rd and the 7th are both minor)
C7 = C - E - G - Bb (major 3rd, but minor 7th; I put this one last because although it's a very common chord, learners often find the name confusing as it gives less clues about what notes are actually in it).
The "dominant 7" chord means the last of these sort of chords, but moved up so that it has the dominant as its root, which would be G7 in this example, G - B - D - F. Notice that in C, the dominant 7 chord of G7 can be called "diatonic" because it only includes notes from the C major scale. Not important right now, but once you know how to spell chords (work out the notes in them) then you can start trying to understand how they relate to each other a little better.
For each type of chord, try to learn how big the intervals are between each note as this will help you play the same types of chords in different keys. For example, C - E - G - B = Cmaj7. Move every note up a tone so that the intervals between the notes are the same, and you get D - F# - A - C# = Dmaj7.
Also, try to find some chord charts for songs you like and work through them, using this to give you ideas for notes to play around with in each chord. It helps to do this really slowly so that you can experiment more extensively and hear how the notes fit with the chords at different points.
If you want some scales to try, then try notes from the major scale over maj7 chords, pentatonic minor over min7 chords and the mixolydian mode (like a major scale, but with a flat 7) over plain old seventh chords (like G7). These are just starting ideas. But do remember that good bass lines don't usually work just by dropping different scales in each bar to match the chord at that point, they have to relate to each other as the tune progresses. And you don't have to play every note in a scale, leave some out here and there. Experiment, and have fun!
Again, sorry if this is more basic than you need, but some folks might find it useful. And sorry it's a long post, but there's lot of info crammed in here. Read it slowly, and you'll get it!
Actually, that depends on who you ask. The obvious "common practice" scale for a dominant 7th chord is mixolydian. Other scales may also be used depending on taste and context. Given the phrasing of the OP, I don't think using "hungarian major" as an example is really helping much. The post above this one seems much more in touch with the level of the thread.
Unless the key is minor.....
I don't know if telling the OP about "dominant scales" is very helpful either though. I mean if you ask me to play a dominant scale you can see just a few of the options I would consult. I don't think helps at all to give students outcome based answers to their questions. It only gives them a limited understanding of things.
If they are confused by the answers they do get them maybe that is a good impetus for them to look further into things themselves beyond what some people tell them on a forum. You might also refer to the response I gave previously in post 2.
Let's be honest here. The OP asked a very basic question about the scalar implications of dominant chords:
It's patently obvious to anyone not trying to be exceptionally obtuse that the reference to understanding the relationship between Ma7 chords and Dom7 chords was alluding to the fact that a Dom7 chord is spelled like a Ma7 chord with the 7th flatted. This is a very basic question which the next two posters - including the person whose youtube video inspired the question -answered in the spirit in which it was intended.
Marlowedk said:I havent stated anywhere that to understand b7 you should understand Maj7, but i strongly endorse the thought
In spite of this, if you think that suggesting "hungarian major" and "Phrygian Dominant" is addressing the question on the level that it was asked, fine. I think they're putting the cart way before the horse. Yes, it could also be common to play the diminished whole tone or the diminished scale over a dominant chord, but suggesting these alternatives to someone who is just learning how to spell a basic mixolydian scale is getting way ahead of the OP's game IMO. If we pursue this line of thinking, we might as well start throwing in Coltrane reharms, triad pairs, and "playing outside"...which hardly seems appropriate at this point - again, IMO.
Which concludes that the most basic and common manifestation of this "chord scale" would be mixolydian, "tertian tetrad" speak or no.
All I can say is that taking what I say out of context certainly seems your forte.
The point I am making which I would think is painfully obvious is that any number of scales have dominant 7 chords attached to them. There is no reason to assume that the term "dominant scale" refers to the mixolydian scale for any universal reason, as illustrated by my point about Hungarian major etc.
It should also be clear that what I said in that post was not a response to the original post. My response to that post is clearly outlined in post 2 and for what it is worth neither post is in contradiction of the other. The fact that I am giving the basic diatonic context of the dominant 7 chord does not go to me agreeing that the mixolydian scale should be referred to as "the dominant 7 scale".
Once again outcome based misinformation is not effective pedagogy.
mutedeity said:
So would you consider post #2 in this thread to be an example of "effective pedagogy"? I ask just out of professional curiosity.
I'd also be interested to hear more about what you refer to as "outcome based" learning and why you apparently think it's a bad thing.
- Apr 1, 2000
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This thread (and one person in particular) reminds me of a joke:
“Daddy, where did I come from?” the seven-year-old asked. It was a moment for which her parents had carefully prepared. They took her into the living room, got out the encyclopedia and several other books, and explained all they thought she should know about sexual attraction, affection, love, and reproduction. Then they both sat back and smiled contentedly.
“Does that answer your question?” her father asked.
“Not really,” the little girl said. “Judy said she came from Detroit. I want to know where I came from.”
“Daddy, where did I come from?” the seven-year-old asked. It was a moment for which her parents had carefully prepared. They took her into the living room, got out the encyclopedia and several other books, and explained all they thought she should know about sexual attraction, affection, love, and reproduction. Then they both sat back and smiled contentedly.
“Does that answer your question?” her father asked.
“Not really,” the little girl said. “Judy said she came from Detroit. I want to know where I came from.”
I took nothing out of context. I merely questioned the efficacy of your "forte", which seems to be needlessly complicating very simple theory questions with abstruse explanations which seem designed more to show off your vocabulary of polysyllabic theory jargon than to simply answer the question.
See the above two posts for different wordings of this same point.
Which is more likely, and more importantly, more *basic* as a starting point for a person just beginning to learn to play over dominant chords: Mixolydian, or "Hungarian Major"?
Clearly, there are many choices for notes to play over a dominant 7th chord. Most people find it useful to start with basic concepts and work upward from there. Do you have children? If so, would the first three words you teach them be "mommy", "daddy", and "disingenuously"?
Like bassybill, I'd be very interested to hear what you define as "outcome based" learning.
funny thing is, I think that, because of your bickering the OP didn't learn as much as he/she could, pedagogic learning or not
so stop it
so stop it
Dan 1215:
Technically speaking, since the three most important notes in a dominant chord are the root, major 3rd, and minor 7th, any known scale which contains these three notes could be called a "dominant scale". The most common of these is called a "mixolydian" scale, which can easily been learned and played as a major scale with the 7th lowered.
The scale that Marlowe refers to at the end of this quote...
...is basically a mixolydian scale with a chromatic note note inserted between the the 2nd and 3rd degrees, and another between the 4th and 5th degrees. What he's describing is a great "hybrid" sort of scale, which mixes the basic mixolydian scale with the blues scale (the b3 and b5 he mentions are staples of the blues scale). If you experiement with this sound, you may find that it can offer you the best of both worlds in many cases. Just remember that any scale is more of a palette of colors available to you to paint with rather than a series of notes which must be played in order.
Technically speaking, since the three most important notes in a dominant chord are the root, major 3rd, and minor 7th, any known scale which contains these three notes could be called a "dominant scale". The most common of these is called a "mixolydian" scale, which can easily been learned and played as a major scale with the 7th lowered.
The scale that Marlowe refers to at the end of this quote...
...is basically a mixolydian scale with a chromatic note note inserted between the the 2nd and 3rd degrees, and another between the 4th and 5th degrees. What he's describing is a great "hybrid" sort of scale, which mixes the basic mixolydian scale with the blues scale (the b3 and b5 he mentions are staples of the blues scale). If you experiement with this sound, you may find that it can offer you the best of both worlds in many cases. Just remember that any scale is more of a palette of colors available to you to paint with rather than a series of notes which must be played in order.
You know, I might have misread what was said in the original post. I think though, that rather than this argumentative rant that some people seem intent on following up with me in post after post, you might have pointed it out by saying "I think you misread the post".
I would have responded pretty much with what I said in post 2, which I can't see how you can fault and also said that while this is true of a diatonic context, that there are any number of scales that "contain" a dominant7 chord and Maj7 chord respectively.
I would have responded pretty much with what I said in post 2, which I can't see how you can fault and also said that while this is true of a diatonic context, that there are any number of scales that "contain" a dominant7 chord and Maj7 chord respectively.
