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MAJOR Ampeg cabinet issues

#21
The speaker cab may be under warranty....... but....... and as you read this, remember that I DO NOT work for Loud/Ampleg anymore, and don't like Loud very much at all...

OK

I must have missed the "inverted cone" thing. Speakers do NOT do that by themselves..... unless there is a really serious issue with glue, OR a phasing issue. Specifically the HLF, which you can beat on pretty hard with no problem.

It takes much power to pop speakers otherwise..... that's about it. That or a heck of a turn-on pop in the amp.

If I were a tech who got that in, I would take a really good look at the speaker that was popped apart..... and IF I saw evidence of the glue being OK, AND the wiring were OK, I would NOT honor any warranty at all, because there would be plain evidence of overpowering. I wouldn't care if you told me you hooked to to your battery radio, the evidence would be right there.

Now, in YOUR case, we have a tech early in this process who said it was wired "all wrong" and apparently re-wired it (or not).

That could be a problem.

IF the cab was wired with one or more speakers out-of phase (connected backwards vs the others) you could have that exact problem. You also would have a serious lack of low end.

The FIRST time it came in, it would be a warranty issue of wiring. The SECOND time, it would be a problem with the first tech, who would have messed up on fixing it.

Get a tech who can find his buns with both hands, and get it fixed right. The first guy seems like he couldn't find his nose with a mirror.

You don't have a speaker problem, sounds like you have a tech problem, ever since the very first repair.
 
#23
mrkreuzschlitz said:
Thats ignorance. Nothing wrong with GC, or some new Ampeg stuff.

Its under warranty, they should fix it.
Click to expand...

Much as I dislike Loud, I would NOT expect them to repair an overpowering problem under warranty......

And I would NOT expect them to repair, under warranty, the bad work of some other tech, unless you can bring in a warranty receipt for the previous work, which would make it the fault of a Loud warranty authorized shop, and thus Loud's problem.

If the first tech, who seems to have botched the job, was NOT a Loud warranty shop, Loud is now off the hook, as "unauthorized" work was done.

If he WAS Loud authorized, they need to pony up for his botched repair.
 
#24
Welp, the first tech told me it wasn't wired properly so he fixed it.

I went to the repair center yesterday. He said there was NO WAY either a 400RB or a 700RB can do this. He tested the input jack in the back and said now ALL FOUR speakers are dead. He also said he's calling Ampeg on Friday to see if A- they will compensate me somewhat on all the speakers I ordered from Loud support and B- See if they will outright replace the cabinet. I also told him I refuse to pay another dime, so make sure not to touch until the okay comes through from Ampeg.

I also told him no matter what the outcome, I wanna know what the exact problems are. He also knew the guy who repaired it and said he does know what he's doing, so it may not be a wiring issue..well at least not *only* a wiring issue.

Both service guys were amazed. I now call them the amp detectives. I'll let you know what happens.
 
#27
JimmyM said:
Yeah, GC went in there and totally ruined her cab so she would have a miserable time with it just for fun. Seriously, if you have nothing to say, don't say anything.
Click to expand...

Hey it's a free country, if people don't like going into a place that's open until 8 pm and getting good deals on new and used gear, that's their problem...
 
#28
This sounds to me like this was some act of revenge. Or sounds like a case of testing the XDAMAGE rating of the speakers.

Like plugging the cabinet into a wall socket while the owner was not present. or how about ever put an M-80 in a mailbox?

OVER
 
#29
I own two ampeg 410 hlf's (US). Both have never given me any problem at all, and I have played small cheap Yamaha B100 heads through them, and played Mesa 400+ through them (of course, I mostly use myt SVT 3 Pro through them now), so no, those cabs have treated me with nothing but distinction so far, and I have had both for about 7 years. Laurie, please do keep us informed, if there is going to be any possible problems with these cabs, I would really like to know. Thank you for the thread.
 
#30
The repair center finally called back and they told me that they are waiting to see if Ampeg will authorize the replacement of all 4 drivers. He told them the whole story, but it doesn't look like they'll replace the cabinet, just the drivers. This bothers me because back when this started happening, Loud said just replace the speakers it'll be fine.
In any case, as soon as they fix it, I'm bringing in my equipment and I'm going to play at all my settings for 30 minutes to see what happens. If it happens again, I'm going right back to the repair center and demand a new cab. Seems only fair considering all the $$ I spent on this thing already.
 
#31
Your41Plague12 said:
I've had nothing but trouble with authorized Ampeg technicians, especially on warranty issues with my newer SVT-CL. Make SURE you let them know that you refuse to pay a cent to have it fixed, and if they tell you to talk to Ampeg about it, one of two things will happen: 1, you won't be able to contact a human being in the company, and 2: if you do, they will tell you the dealer is responsible for fixing it. I've been turned down at multiple service centers literally because I didn't buy it there, and it would take too much time for the money to come from Ampeg to the shop (so they could be paid). They told me to take it to where I bought it.

Sorry for the wall of text, I'm just trying to save you some trouble based on my experience with the goons that are involved with Ampeg today.
Click to expand...

+1 on this. I had something happen to me that was less than pleasing with a cl. but thankfully they gave me grooves in place of jj's they still chraged me way too much.
 
#33
OK, as mentioned, I am NOT, (and that would be a big 'ol NOT) a stooge for Loud.......

BUT

Nothing so far makes any sense......... unless we are not getting told everything............


1) Have you leveled with us about the volume levels you are using, and settings? Like are you really maxed out with all the low end cranked?

2) How long did you keep playing after the problem showed up before taking it in?

3) Do any of these shops/techs really hate you?

4) Did you ever notice a real lack of low end?

We back at the SLM version of Ampeg, ROUTINELY beat on HLF and other cabs with SVT4PROs, and even the 8PRO........

I do not recall any time we blew one speaker, let alone a whole cabinet full......... I think we did manage to smoke the coils a few times, but as far as mechanical damage such as I understand you to mention, nope. Of course, if we started to hear obvious overpowering, we tended to stop, stuff like the voice coil hitting the magnet, etc.

This thread is totally out of line with my experience.....

The ONLY thing that could be explaining it is that the cab was wired out of phase in two speakers...... that would allow them all to 'flap", and encourage the user to crank low end because the low end would be weak/missing.

Other than that, it's as if you said that the sky was bright green.......
 
#34
Hi Jerrold, I would be more than happy to answer all of your questions.

1)The volume never went past 1 oclock ever. I have two guitar players in my band and anything louder than that in obnoxious. In the studio it's actually LOWER than that, at about 10 oclock. Low ends never past 2 oclock.
2) It happens within the first 6 months of playing it. I called loud to explain the problem and their advice was to replace the speaker. I took it in when speakers 3 and 4 busted. That was earlier this year.
3) Nobody hates me, in fact they were recommended by other players, I know them all rather well and there is no hatred.
4)I never noticed a lack of low end, primarily because the p/u's on my bass tend to be trebly to begin with. It's an old Fender Jazz, it's not incredibly subby.

To add, I'm very aware of the quality checks Ampeg does. I've owned an old 810 for years. I bought it used in 1993 and replaced one speaker and here we in 2009 and there's still no problem. I've had several bassists recommend this particular amp because of the convenient size for touring, but still pushes great wattage.

If it *is* indeed the wiring, the ampeg service center is waiting for the green light to replace all the speakers..which means they will be doing all the wiring.
I'm not disagreeing that this is uncommon. But it screams "dud". It's just speakers and wiring and so much shouldn't be happening to a cabinet.

I would like to ask. If the cab was wired out of phase in two speakers, could it still happen with all four speakers? Would it just be the same two speakers blowing or is it just taking turns? Just curious because it's not always the same speakers that blow out.
 
#35
laurie said:
I would like to ask. If the cab was wired out of phase in two speakers, could it still happen with all four speakers? Would it just be the same two speakers blowing or is it just taking turns? Just curious because it's not always the same speakers that blow out.
Click to expand...

Ok...... this is a 410HLF, right?

The 410HLF is ported, and unlike some of the other cabs, is effectively one big box.......it isn't internally separated like an 810.

All the speakers SHOULD move in or out together. If they move IN, the pressure in the box goes up, and if they move out, it goes down.

So, if one speaker is wired wrong, it will move OUT when the others move IN..... The pressure in the box will ALSO be pushing it out, at the same time it is MOVING out. It may get pushed past its movement limits, by the combination of pressure and its own force from the voice coil.

The cabinet might sound a bit weak on lows, but you might not notice, and might crank it up a bit to compensate even if you did notice.

Pretty easy to see that the one out-of-phase speaker is going to get severely pounded if any significant power is used...... But in that case, the other speakers are probably going to survive for a while, they have a 3:1 advantage......

If the lows are cranked, or the problem goes on for a while, or they get over-stressed when the cone on the bad speaker is 'shot out", they might be stretched, suspensions messed up, cones maybe creased.....and yes, they could fail later.

BTW, reviewing the whole thread...... the "cone hanging by the wires"...... That sure sounds like one out-of-phase speaker..... that is about what could happen. (But phasing isn't the ONLY way it could happen...)

It might indeed be that #1 (the backwards phase one) would fail, and be replaced, with the tech maybe fixing the wiring at that point. Later, if the other speakers were indeed damaged, they might begin to fail also....... This almost sounds like it is what you had.... maybe I owe that first tech an apology.......... I was thinking he had messed up his fix....... it might be that he really DID fix it, but the damage was already done....... or else he just moved the problem to another speaker by PARTLY fixing the wiring...... can't tell from here.

Now, if TWO speakers are wired backwards vs the other two, then it is a tossup who fails first..... They all 4 will get stretched about the same.

But the lows will be seriously weak, and I suspect you would notice....... I can't see that going un-noticed for long.........................

We hit 410s with all sorts of stuff, even the 8PRO, and never saw what you saw.....

The ONLY OTHER explanation is something going on that causes a really low frequency output from the amp........... That's why I asked about low boosts.

Most any ported cabinet will totally lose 'cone control" below the 'tuning" frequency..... the speakers will act as if there was almost no box at all... if you give them power, even a few watts, the cones may move drastically, and the suspensions can be torn, etc. Eventually, the speaker might do what you say...... the suspension might finally tear and the cone shoots out.

Did you ever see the cones really moving a LOT? They shouldn't.

Another deal is that if one speaker blows out, the box tuning is suddenly completely shot by having a big extra hole in the box where the cone was, and the other speakers might be damaged by that before you catch on and quit playing.......

So.... the probable issues I see could be.....

1) At least one out-of phase speaker....... and possibly some un-funny "comedy of errors" by the techs.

2) Some sort of low frequency pulse or boosted lows that really push the speakers at a way low frequency, below box tuning. It would have to happen regularly, I think, although possibly one really bad occurrence could damage all the speakers so that they eventually fail.

3) A bad batch of speakers that is so bad that even Loud would have to do something about it, and would not be giving you grief about it. They'd have to know, and would already be replacing them, with dealer bulletins, etc.....

BTW, I have a diagram of what the wiring SHOULD be........
 
#37
Hey Jerrold,

The scenarios you mention make a lot of sense. When it's all said it done, with all the speakers I've already replaced twice(knocking out #3) and the fact that a 400RB was used (the low frequency was never cranked..1 oclock max) - I'm guessing it's scenario #1.
Since it's at an Ampeg authorized center right now and all 4 speakers are shot, they would have to check the wiring. At least once Ampeg(Loud) gives them the green light. It's just waiting at the repair shop for the authorization. Thanks for your input about it, it helps a lot!

B-String, the 700RBII was used a total of 2 times. That switch for 5 string basses, I know the switch you're talking about but I didn't use it.
 
#38
The string switch can also be used for 4 strings. The problem is it is a boost at 20Hz some cabs might have trouble with extended low frequencies. Can possibly over extend speakers. G-K amp power supplies also supply more current than most? 5 times the need of the RMS power rating. That said I also think JT maybe on track with a miss phased driver.
Best wishes :)
 
#39
I've been following this thread with interest. I too have never come across drivers blown so badly as to invert a cone or detach it completely. Truthfully I would not have though it possible thinking that the voice coil would have fused first.

A switch to boost at 20Hz seems nonsensical to me. It's below the fundamental of all regularly tuned basses. It is in fact sub-sonic and that just causes problems. Of more value would be a high pass filter set at 20Hz to filter the sub-sonics out and prevent frequencies that the drivers can't handle from ever reaching them. Not too many bass heads include such a filter but I really believe them to be a necessity. More so when you consider the sub-sonic mush put out by some effects pedals.

Paul
 

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